Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

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Nick Baty
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Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by Nick Baty » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:15 am

There's a full list of the music being used at this afternoon's Mass in Dublin here:
https://www.worldmeeting2018.ie/en/Reso ... -Resources

Southern Comfort
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Re: Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by Southern Comfort » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:47 pm

Thanks for this link, Nick!

The "Lourdes Gloria" is still listed as being by Jean-Paul Lécot, whereas readers of this forum will know that Lécot "borrowed" (without permission or acknowledgement) Mgr Francis's Duffy's Gloria verses, reharmonized them (badly) and redistributed the text, adding a fourth bar of his own to make it all fit in French, transposed it from B flat into D, and the final insult, added a new refrain of his own using the same rhythm as Duffy's (Duffy's original in can be found in Music for the Mass vol. 1 and other places).

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Re: Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by Peter » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:34 pm

It seems odd to pick a Sanctus and Great Amen from the same Mass setting (even though they look thematically and tonally unrelated to me) and then interpose a Memorial Acclamation adapted to fit a totally unrelated hymn tune. Composers submitting settings of the Sanctus to the Panel for approval are required also to submit settings of all three Memorial Acclamations and the Great Amen to form a consistent set, with a recommendation that they be thematically linked, or at least in the same or related keys. There doesn't seem to be a similar requirement on liturgy planners to use consistent settings. :?

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Re: Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by Nick Baty » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:39 pm

That setting of When We Eat This Bread is well-known in Ireland and appeared in several Irish collections in the 80s, including one edited by Margaret Daly – the name of it escapes me.

Southern Comfort
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Re: Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by Southern Comfort » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:12 am

The title of Margaret Daly's collection was Alleluia, Amen!

The setting of "When we eat" is to the hymn tune ST COLUMBA. It was originally done at the St Thomas More Centre in London in 1974, and fits well with the former text "we proclaim your death, Lord Jesus, until you come in glory". T.C. Kelly subsequently took the idea and did the choral arrangement that was used in Phoenix Park yesterday. The 2011 textual revision means the new words have to be stretched out to fit the music....

In answer to Peter's point,
Composers submitting settings of the Sanctus to the Panel for approval are required also to submit settings of all three Memorial Acclamations and the Great Amen to form a consistent set, with a recommendation that they be thematically linked, or at least in the same or related keys. There doesn't seem to be a similar requirement on liturgy planners to use consistent settings. :?
this recommendation is only mandatory in England and Wales. Other countries (e.g. the USA, Australia, New Zealand) do not have the same stipulation in their approval processes, and it appears that Ireland and possibly Scotland do not either.

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Re: Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by Nick Baty » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:55 pm

Even if not mandatory, I'm not sure why one wouldn't want to match the three acclamations. Perhaps I am just used to the tradition in England & Wales which predates the requirements of the Permission to Publish Panel! 8)

Southern Comfort
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Re: Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by Southern Comfort » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:54 pm

Nick Baty wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:55 pm
Even if not mandatory, I'm not sure why one wouldn't want to match the three acclamations. Perhaps I am just used to the tradition in England & Wales which predates the requirements of the Permission to Publish Panel! 8)
While I agree with you, Nick, that matching the three acclamations with the Holy and Great Amen is desirable, others suggest that different music is permissible, even desirable, because all these texts are in different literary forms. For example:

Holy, holy — acclamation
We proclaim your death, O Lord — prosaic statement
When we eat this bread — prosaic statement
Save us, Saviour of the world — petition followed by statement of faith
Amen — acclamation

No one, so far as I am aware, has a had a serious discussion of this, let alone the anonymous approval panel, the bishops' liturgy committee or anyone else. Imposing requirements without a properly thought-through rationale is never a good idea. In the meantime, you can find any number of Mass settings in the USA, New Zealand (they were the first), etc, where the acclamations are independent of the Holy, holy, perhaps not even in the same key or modality as the Holy holy, and sometimes independent of each other too. In an age when liturgical music publishing is a global phenomenon, it makes no sense for bishops' conferences not to get their heads together to produce a coherent, consistent, worldwide policy. But we need the discussion first.

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Re: Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by Ephrem Feeley » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:57 pm

In answer to Peter's point,
Composers submitting settings of the Sanctus to the Panel for approval are required also to submit settings of all three Memorial Acclamations and the Great Amen to form a consistent set, with a recommendation that they be thematically linked, or at least in the same or related keys. There doesn't seem to be a similar requirement on liturgy planners to use consistent settings. :?
this recommendation is only mandatory in England and Wales. Other countries (e.g. the USA, Australia, New Zealand) do not have the same stipulation in their approval processes, and it appears that Ireland and possibly Scotland do not either.
All four of the newly written mass settings, published in 2010, follow this recommendation. The norm in Ireland is to use the same mass setting for all three acclamations: Holy, Holy; Memorial Acclamations; Amen.

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Re: Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by VML » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:21 pm

Meanwhile, in parishes where 'nobody has time for practices,' and it is about the art of the possible, we almost always sing the simple chant Amen.

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Re: Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by Nick Baty » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:31 pm

VML wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:21 pm
Meanwhile, in parishes where 'nobody has time for practices,' and it is about the art of the possible, we almost always sing the simple chant Amen.
Although with a matching set, the Amen should flow fairly easily – many follow the same pattern as the Hosanna, for example. I always feel the Amen should have impact – if you've had a clanging Holy, the chanted Amen can sound a little dowdy. Still, I'm just pleased when people sing it.

I work with a deaf priest who, with the best will in the world, simply cannot sing the doxology. Instead, he speaks it in a measured fashion with appropriate chords underneath which then lead into the Amen.

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Re: Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by Nick Baty » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:44 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:54 pm
While I agree with you, Nick, that matching the three acclamations with the Holy and Great Amen is desirable, others suggest that different music is permissible, even desirable, because all these texts are in different literary forms. For example:
Holy, holy — acclamation
We proclaim your death, O Lord — prosaic statement
When we eat this bread — prosaic statement
Save us, Saviour of the world — petition followed by statement of faith
Amen — acclamation
Further to SC's comments above, there's also the fact that the memorial acclamation come in the middle, at a time when, apart from the irritating bell tinkling*, all is quiet. Crashing in with an acclamation of the same style as a a rumbustious Holy would not be appropriate here.

For the last five John weeks we've been singing When we eat this bread to the same melodic material as the Holy but shifting from 6/8 to 4/4. (Back to 6/8 for the Amen.)

* Note: While (I think) I understand the origins of the irritating bell tinkling, I don't understand why it still exists.

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Re: Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by alan29 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:30 pm

I find I dont have the stomach to tune in to anything that features clerics at the moment.
So I avoided.

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Re: Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by justMary » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:18 pm

alan29 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:30 pm
I find I dont have the stomach to tune in to anything that features clerics at the moment.
So I avoided.
As did the majority of people in Ireland!

It may be the norm for published Masses to include all the Mass parts, but in average parishes it is certainly not the norm to use a matching set at the same Mass.

The Ordinary at this event gives a representative feeling for the Ordinary at the average parishes I've seen in my travels. The hymns less so.

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Re: Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by Nick Baty » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:24 pm

justMary wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:18 pm
It may be the norm for published Masses to include all the Mass parts, but in average parishes it is certainly not the norm to use a matching set at the same Mass.
I wonder why. Using matching thematic material makes it much easier for the assembly. For example, they will instinctively know which Amen they're singing. Should stress, we only do this for the Acclamations (Holy, Memorial, Amen). Glorias and Gospel Greetings run on their own separate cycles.

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Re: Music for Papal Mass in Phoenix Park, Dublin

Post by Southern Comfort » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:45 pm

Nick Baty wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:24 pm
justMary wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:18 pm
It may be the norm for published Masses to include all the Mass parts, but in average parishes it is certainly not the norm to use a matching set at the same Mass.
I wonder why.
Perhaps for the reasons I mentioned further up the thread. The forms are sufficiently different that folks instinctively want to do non-matching things. Either that or they've just never thought of unifying the three acclamations.

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