Liturgical Tourism

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Peter
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:05 pm

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Peter » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:49 pm

blackthorn fairy wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:05 pm
... Disappointed though that we were asked not to join in the responses (as the server was deemed to be responding on behalf of the congregation). This was not how I remember from the 'olden days' where I first started going to Mass - we were then doing what was called a Dialogue Mass I believe, with all supposed to be saying the repsonses. ...
If my memory still serves me right after nearly sixty years, when I started serving I was taught to say the responses as the only one doing so (unless there was another server at that Mass, in which case we both did). The Dialogue Mass came in a few years after that: I remember when it was introduced and everyone in the congregation was offered response cards. Presumably EF advocates prefer the older system to the short-lived one introduced only a few years before Vatican II changed everything.

My Assumption Day Mass (not at my usual church, but not far away, so like JW I won't say where it was) had the singing one would expect, but the readings were those of the Vigil Mass rather than the day one, even though it was around midday on the 15th, and the homily was preached on those readings. Unfortunately, no-one seemed to have told the cantor, who sang the Psalm and Gospel Acclamation verse for the day itself. :?

MARYFA
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:35 pm
Parish / Diocese: DIOCESE of LEEDS

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by MARYFA » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:56 pm

I certainly remember being trained in the Dialogue Mass in my Convent Grammar School about 1950 but it was not used in my own parish for another
ten years or so. I do remember it in use around 1959/60 in the Marist Parish in Middlesbrough. Perhaps it was particularly popular among
religious orders.

alan29
Posts: 1153
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:37 pm

In the early 60s we had dialogue masses in school. Table set up on the stage in the hall, facing the people, with the readings in English while the priest read them silently in Latin. English hymns and we all said the Latin responses. All very exciting at the time.

Peter
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:05 pm

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Peter » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:16 am

Today I paid a return visit to Pont-Écrepin in Normandy, where in the summer I'd experienced a relatively quiet Mass. This time they were back to what I gather is their normal routine, with children (about 25 of them today) and parents on one side of the sanctuary and choir (about ten) on the other and the homily focused very much on the children, concluding with a song (with actions) about the love of God being higher, deeper, wider etc. than we can imagine, which was also the main theme of the homily. The priest started the song with a taped accompaniment but found it easier to continue unaccompanied after a while. After that, the children knelt for a period of silence before the Creed. Children also led the intercessions and remained on the sanctuary in front of the altar for the Eucharistic Prayer. They mostly knelt on the carpet for that but the congregation remained standing, as the main part of the congregational area had chairs but no kneelers. I wish I could persuade my PP that standing for the EP is OK (and in fact the preferred option according to the GIRM): my church has chairs mostly without kneelers and yet he tries to persuade us to kneel, or if we can't suggests we sit, which seems very messy (and less respectful) to me.

Before the Lord's Prayer the children moved to the back and sides of the altar, linking hands with each other and with the choir's and parents' blocks, a gesture a former PP of mine encouraged and which I have also encountered occasionally in Masses at Summer School. Some congregations seem to like it, others don't.

As last time I was there, they had a paraphrased, responsorial Gloria and a spoken Psalm with sung response. The Sanctus was also responsorial, with "Hosanna, hosanna aux plus haut des cieux" appearing (repeated) at the beginning as well as in its rightful places. I don't know whether "Dieu de l'univers" is the approved translation of "Deus Sabaoth" but otherwise the words seemed OK to me. The Agnus Dei was interspersed with other verses.

There was no Offertory hymn (presumably considered not needed after the children's one), but the opening and closing hymns also had verses and responses, verses led by the choir but some congregation members joining in as well. The closing one was to a simple Marian text, whether in honour of today's feast of Our Lady of the Rosary I didn't ask. Unfortunately, what I picked up as I left was not the parish newsletter I supposed it to be but a leaflet about an appeal for the restoration of another church in the vicinity, so I couldn't see if they had anything planned for that feast.

blackthorn fairy
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:36 am
Parish / Diocese: Our Lady of the Sacred Heart Wellingborough Northamptonshire

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by blackthorn fairy » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:37 pm

I have been in France too - went to Mass at the cathedral in Avignon on Sunday 30th September. No choir but congregation sang reasonably well, led by the usual female cantor waving her left arm. Kyrie and Gloria from Missa de Angelis (no music or words provided but I was able to sing it from memory). A responsorial psalm sung in the usual way (words provided) and some other bits sung in French which they seemed to know but which were non-liturgical (devotional perhaps?). Sanctus and Angus Dei to a 'local' tune. Salve Regina at the end. All reasonably well sung. Also a baptism, with father of the baby seemingly in charge - a short ceremony during Mass with anointing - she was called Marie-Chris (that's what it sounded like) - but no sign of water or a font. Afterwards baptismal party assembled at entrance for more of something (informal) with PP, after which they all came back in for more stuff at a side altar. I still didn't manage to find the font. Perhaps it was hidden by the family. Altogether a pleasant experience. Organist played good voluntary but was clearly worried about tuning, as afterwards had to try out various notes/stops to identify where out of tune.

Peter
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:05 pm

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Peter » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:47 am

Spending a week in France just before Easter, I'd been expecting to ask for a lift to the above-mentioned church at Pont-Écrepin to see how they did Palm Sunday at their regular 11am Mass there. However, their priest also celebrates Masses at other churches in the area on a less regular basis, and I was in luck in that it was the turn of the church in the village where I was staying to have a Vigil Mass. Unfortunately I can't find the hymn sheet that was handed out, but as I remember the hymns were more generic entrance, Offertory and Communion hymns than anything specifically to do with the Passion; a Marian recessional hymn, with the priest pausing by the statue of Our Lady, seemed a bit incongruous.

Green bunches of box hedge were blessed outside the church before Mass, which must have been closer to the foliage waved at Jesus' actual entrance to Jerusalem than the dried palms used in the UK, and the only major liturgical faux-pas was the choice of entrance hymn to which we carried them in - as its refrain included the "A-word". The priest told us as the procession started to sing "hosanna" instead, but clearly the group leading the singing gathered before the little harmonium didn't hear him and sang "alleluia" with gusto, so my efforts to sing "hosanna" as instructed had no effect. They had several readers for the Passion narrative, sharing out the minor parts between them and saying the crowd parts together.

The church is cruciform with the old altar at the top of the cross, but the post-Vatican II altar is at the crossing and though there are seats in the other parts, the congregation of about 60 all occupied the main area between the altar and the main door, making it comfortably full but not too crowded. I found it a moving occasion, not least because it was a pleasure to see the old church being used but also because the people involved in it were clearly making the best they could of limited resources.

The other feature of the church that greatly impressed me was their set of Stations of the Cross, bas-relief depictions of each scene in great detail, which made me reflect not just on Jesus' journey but also on the other people shown, how their various encounters with him must have affected them and what lessons we can learn from them.

High Peak
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:49 pm
Parish / Diocese: Diocese of Nottingham
Location: Derbyshire

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by High Peak » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:21 pm

Encouraged to do so on another thread, here is an account of my experience of liturgy in Malta over the Triduum. We attended the Triduum liturgies at one church and Sunday morning at another.
The Triduum music seemed to be run by a youth group (in their 20s) and was all praise & worship in style. Although not my thing at all, the group was very talented individually and collectively - what they did they did very well. They had a keyboard, rhythm guitar, electric guitar, bass guitar, cajon and violin (though not all instruments were played at all three liturgies) and two or three very good singers.
However, they seemed to bring P&W songs that they liked and were going to shoehorn them into the liturgy somehow, regardless of how tenuous the link was; and, despite their abundant talent, the Psalm was said not sung. In fact, hardly anything of what "should" be sung was in fact sung. So, the Sanctus and Agnus Dei were said and the Gloria was said (with bells) but then followed by a P&W "glory" song. The keyboard player played "mood music" during the Eucharistic Prayers. On Friday I was recognised as having been present the previous day and, about 10 minutes before the service began, I was asked to do a reading!! The Easter fire at the Vigil (which started when it was still fairly light) was very modest in size and had been lit too early; so, by the time we gathered round, it was little more than glowing embers and sparks that were blown about in the rather strong winds.
Sunday morning at a different church was very different. The large, modern church was almost full but we had nothing to sing at all. Nada. Even the Gospel Acclamation was sung by a (very-well) trained singer who sang Mozart's "Alleluia" (from Exsultate, Jubilate) - all 2.5+ minutes of it - after which the congregation applauded! Bizarre! During the Communion Procession she sang a solo version of Mozart's "Ave Verum" after a small group of young children, that she had coached, sang "Give me joy in my heart"! This group also sang something for the Entrance Procession. Prayers and readings all very rushed as was Communion where the minister had already turned to the next person before you had the chance to say, "Amen".
I am very aware that that all sounds rather critical (and I understand if a moderator wishes to delete this post) but even my sons were incredulous - and, at times, struggled to contain their expressions of disbelief. :(

alan29
Posts: 1153
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 » Sun May 26, 2019 6:02 am

Sunday morning Mass in Calabria in a village church.
We arrived about 10 minutes early to find a group of ladies leading the May devotions, furiously gabbled Ave Marias and litany, and sung Salve Regina to the usual tune but with local variants. The church was beautifully restored and laden with flowers.
Elderly priest and two girl servers who were being MC'd by a formidable lady in the front pew. The priest looked totally disengaged though he preached at length. The ladies who had led the devotions turned out to be the choir, seated at the front by a keyboard. They led well, and the congregation of about 50 sang too. They used a hymn book that had been locally compiled. Misalettes were provided. Readers came from the choir. The organist, an oldish man, employed a technique of playing that I haven't heard for decades - a kind of super-legato where each note is held on fractionally longer than written so you sort of get the effect of playing in a big acoustic as notes smudge into each other. I'm probably not explaining it terribly well, but older members would recognize it.
Only about half the congregation went to communion. We wondered why. Was it custom or were they especially sinful? Calabria is deepest Mafia country, so it could be either. We did wonder how so many dirt poor villages managed to have such large churches that were in beautiful condition, often freshly painted ..... just saying.

alan29
Posts: 1153
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:25 pm

Evensong at York Minster. Proper choral evensong, the shining jewel in Anglicanisms crown. An indifferent visiting choir didnt spoil it. Lovely.
But if Cranmer was able to translate the latin collects into beautiful clear English with wonderfully balanced phrases, how come our lot made such a pig's ear of the same texts and made them less commprehensible than texts 500 years old?
Just how did they manage it?

JW
Posts: 850
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:46 am
Location: Kent

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by JW » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:06 pm

alan29 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:25 pm
Evensong at York Minster. Proper choral evensong, the shining jewel in Anglicanisms crown. An indifferent visiting choir didnt spoil it. Lovely.
But if Cranmer was able to translate the latin collects into beautiful clear English with wonderfully balanced phrases, how come our lot made such a pig's ear of the same texts and made them less commprehensible than texts 500 years old?
Just how did they manage it?
Quite easy really! You simply ignore a perfectly good translation and commission people to translate directly from Latin. Then ask people who have little facility for the English language to proofread it. Oh, and ignore all warnings from respected clergy and laity. Then, a few years later, you inform people that they are all used to it now so there's no need to change. This sorry tale is typical of what is wrong with the way our beloved Church is managed.

Back to topic, I subbed for the local Anglican organist at a wedding last Saturday. Everything ran like clockwork. In stark contrast to a wedding in my own parish where the bride was over an hour late. According to the photographer, you only get late brides in churches (and I suspect he was referring to Catholic churches). Go figure!
JW

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