Liturgical Tourism

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir

Post Reply
oopsorganist
Posts: 764
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by oopsorganist » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:00 am

Re Nazard's post

note how the female for dog has become a term of abuse so awful that they think it may be be muzzled by the system.
Let me try it and see.
*beep*
uh oh!

oopsorganist
Posts: 764
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by oopsorganist » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:00 am

Yes it was
uh oh!

oopsorganist
Posts: 764
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by oopsorganist » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:07 am

To bring us back on topic..
I was recently away from home somewhere in Yorkshire where an elderly priest spoke on the Gospel reading about a woman who had bled for 13 years, or it may have been 14 years, I forget. And when she touched Jesus she was cured.
So the priest spoke of even those who are the least - they are also important.

Er, like women? Unclean women? Is this not the most radical thing ever. Apparently not. Anyway.

Anyway they had a tape backing for some hymns which were standard fare. No acclamations. The problem with the tape backing was that it stretched people's voices too early in the morning. My ancestors sang in the choir here, 160 years ago. So I gave it some wellie. Sadly for those who had to listen.

I got a free cup of coffee in the local hostelry, having arrived half an hour too early - the inn was closed officially but I was given free coffee for being Catholic (and cheeky enough to ask ).
uh oh!

Peter
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:05 pm

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Peter » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:27 pm

oopsorganist wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:07 am
Anyway they had a tape backing for some hymns which were standard fare. No acclamations. The problem with the tape backing was that it stretched people's voices too early in the morning.
40-odd years ago at the church my parents went to then (no longer in existence), we tried playing taped hymn accompaniments on a simple reel-to-reel player and it was pretty disastrous: no-one could keep up with the speed, let alone the pitch. More recently, I visited another church with a more sophisticated system, which worked much better. I'm not clear whether it just had more congenial speeds or whether digital technology allowed the operator to vary the speed to suit the congregation. When I went to that church again last year the singing was led by a music group including a keyboard, which was better still.

When you said "no acclamations", Oops, did you mean no sung Sanctus etc or just no sung Gospel Acclamation? If it's the former that's very disappointing, though perhaps I shouldn't cast stones: at my parents' erstwhile church mentioned above, at the time we tried the taped hymn accompaniment it was just for a recessional hymn, everything else in the Mass having been said. :roll: Not a practice to be encouraged today, but in those days I hadn't had the benefit of a PP with a keen sense of liturgy, let alone the SSG, so I knew no better - at least that's my excuse!

oopsorganist
Posts: 764
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by oopsorganist » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:07 am

No Gospel Acclamation

I think the use of recorded music worked against this. If there was no musician etc in this parish, then they probably would have managed to sing the Gospel Acclamation and maybe a little bit of basic hymn singing. Just quietly , the way people do when they feel the need.

With careful choice of material, people singing without accompaniment can be very prayerful.

Put on a loud backing track, or play the organ loudly - in a small congregation in a big church. It's not good is it? It makes people feel isolated and ridiculous.

Every CD marketed should be obliged to carry on the front the message....
"You don't really need this
just sing the Gospel Acclamation
and a few hymns that everyone knows".
uh oh!

alan29
Posts: 1108
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:51 pm

Blimey, Oops. You do seem to find 'em.

User avatar
VML
Posts: 695
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:57 am
Parish / Diocese: Clifton Diocese
Location: Glos

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by VML » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:15 pm

Wise words Oops, thank you.

Peter
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:05 pm

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Peter » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:39 pm

Just one little change I'd make to Oops' CD cover:
oopsorganist wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:07 am
Every CD marketed should be obliged to carry on the front the message....
"You don't really need this
just sing the Gospel Acclamation and the Sanctus
and a few hymns that everyone knows".
The congregational singing at the now-long-disappeared church I mentioned above was generally pretty dire without accompaniment (hence the attempt with the tape) but when that church was closed and the congregation moved to another rural Mass Centre with an electronic keyboard it improved, even with me fumbling the tune on the keyboard with no attempt at harmony. I never tried leading unaccompanied singing there; maybe I should have done to see what happened. It works OK at my own church when there aren't sufficient instruments to lead.

The discussion on recorded backing reminds me of a church in France I reported on earlier in this topic (see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1511#p21148) and revisited a couple of years later without reporting on it here. The voices of the celebrant and cantor/choir and accompaniments or other instrumental music were all relayed through the same sound system and while some music seemed to be recorded, as I couldn't see any musicians, it was hard to tell whether the organ was played live or also recorded, but it worked and somehow the use of the sound system gave everything a unity that meant a change from an organ to other instruments did not jar in any way. If it did indeed all come from a CD, then the way they used it left no need to apply Oops' caution.

My other memory of my return visit there was of a rather short and rotund lady forever waddling on and off the sanctuary to micromanage the servers: in one sense amusing, adding to the community feel of the Mass, but in another way quite distracting. :?

User avatar
FrGareth
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:01 am
Parish / Diocese: Archdiocese of Cardiff

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by FrGareth » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:04 pm

I am currently on holiday in Ireland. Yesterday (18th Sunday B) I climbed the mountain of Croagh Patrick, where there is a small oratory at the top. Mass hadn't been scheduled publicly (and I couldn't have predicted how long it would take me to haul my ample frame 764 m above sea level) but having made it and unlocked the Oratory, I went among the milling crowds and cried "I'm a Catholic priest and celebrating Mass in 5 minutes." By the time I got to communion there must have been about 40 in the congregation, and I did what I usually do in these improptu cases when there's no shared tradition of music and no books at hand:
  • Simple chant at the start (something like "Jesus we adore you")
    Echo-and-response Kyrie (Taize 1)
    Said Gloria (no easy way to get this sung in a mixed crowd with no books)
    Said Psalm (have to roll with whatever the volunteer lay reader does)
    Celtic Alleluia
    Brief chant (name of Jesus sung to a simple tune) while preparing the altar
    Missal chant Holy Holy
    Acclamation "When we eat" to tune St Columba
    Sung doxology
    Said Lamb of God
    Chant at Communion (I think it was "Eat this bread" Taize chant)
    No recessional - we said the Hail Holy Queen
The following day I said Mass in the apparition chapel at Knock at 10.15 (not one of the times Masses are publicly advertised) but being a public holiday in Ireland there were a good 60-80 people there and I celebrated in a similar way. Of course congregations can sing, given a nudge!
><>
Revd Gareth Leyshon - Priest of the Archdiocese of Cardiff (views are my own)
Personal website: http://www.garethleyshon.info
Parish website: http://www.sphilipevans.co.uk/

JW
Posts: 820
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:46 am
Location: Kent

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by JW » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:02 pm

I won't say where this was but I attended an Assumption Day Mass at 10.00 this morning where there was no homily despite there being two deacons on the altar as well as the celebrant (who wore a biretta). No Creed. There were no Bidding Prayers. There was no Offertory Procession, the 'Blessed are you' prayer was said in silence apart from the first word, so the people were unable to respond. Pope Emeritus Benedict was mentioned in the Eucharistic Prayer after Pope Francis. There was no music either though one of the deacons sang the Gospel Acclamation.

So Mass was over in less than 40 minutes. The clergy went straight to the sacristy afterwards so there was no real interaction with the people. The celebrant had another Mass at 11.30 in another town, so perhaps he wanted to keep it short. Nevertheless, I have to say that I find it uncomfortable that certain elements will complain strongly on certain blogs about abuses if they are prepared to ignore aspects of GIRM themselves. Surely priests should not agree to supply if it means that elements have to be omitted from a Mass, and rushing from Mass to Mass does no good for the priest's peace of mind?
JW

blackthorn fairy
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:36 am
Parish / Diocese: Our Lady of the Sacred Heart Wellingborough Northamptonshire

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by blackthorn fairy » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:05 pm

Two recent experiences:
Firstly - a Dominican Rite EF Mass on Sunday 12th August - better than the last EF Mass I attended because I could hear the words (when spoken aloud) and so was able to follow and did not get lost! Disappointed though that we were asked not to join in the responses (as the server was deemed to be responding on behalf of the congregation). This was not how I remember from the 'olden days' where I first started going to MAss - we were then doing what was called a Dialogue Mass I believe, with all supposed to be saying the repsonses. I did say - et cum spiritu tuo etc - but very quietly! Otherwise, smallish congregation (including children) in a large church clearly happy with where they were. Good sermon. No music.

Secondly - on 15th August, in the morning, a church in a nearby town with good congregation (very mixed), African priest (v Long sermon!) who led the singing unaccompanied (hymns, psalm and alleluia). Behind me commendably two children from an Indian family were singing strongly and confidently and likewise proclaiming all the spoken parts ( what a contrast to the above silent children). So far, so good. BUT, we sang a paraphrase metrical Gloria (to the Beethoven tune). Why? I would rather say the real words than sing a truncated paraphrase (especially to that awful tune - sorry but I don't like it - but that is not the point!). And I thought that we were all supposed be using the real (restored) words, which are wonderful. So I read the proper words to myself (a bit like as I was doing above!) while the rest sang the travesty.

User avatar
FrGareth
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:01 am
Parish / Diocese: Archdiocese of Cardiff

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by FrGareth » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:23 pm

Last Saturday I was at the Catholic Cathedral in Armagh for their Vigil Mass. Their choir doesn't operate during July and August so the musical leadership consisted of the presiding priest and a pre-recorded track at communion. From memory, Mass unfolded like this:
  • Entrance: one verse of a rather majestic hymn to Christ the King
  • Said Penitential and Glora
  • Said Psalm and Alleluia
  • The parish notices were read out while the collection took place, followed by one verse of a Marian chant with an Ave Maria refrain
  • All Mass parts were said
  • During communion, a pre-recorded track of St Patrick's breastplate was played
  • "O Sacrament" Most Holy chanted after communion
  • One verse of "Give me Joy in My Heart" at the recessional
This wasn't my only experience in Ireland of notices being read out during the collection!
><>
Revd Gareth Leyshon - Priest of the Archdiocese of Cardiff (views are my own)
Personal website: http://www.garethleyshon.info
Parish website: http://www.sphilipevans.co.uk/

User avatar
contrabordun
Posts: 513
Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 4:20 pm

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by contrabordun » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:42 pm

Mass for the Feast of the Assumption in the unique surroundings of the Villa Palazzola. As they don't have the Laudate supplement with the new translations in it, we took - within sight, if not earshot, of the CDW - a bit of licence. :twisted:

Organ Sonata No. 2 Mendelssohn
Entrance: Hail Queen of Heaven
Kyrie: said
Gloria: Metrical paraphrase John Ainslie (John, if you're reading this I hope you don't mind I did it to Cwm Rhondda instead of St Helen)
Psalm: setting from Sing A New Psalm Patrick Killeen
Alleluia: Taizé Berthier
Offertory: Ye Who Own the Faith of Jesus
Sanctus: Gathering Mass Paul Inwood
Acc & Amen: Missal Tone
Agnus: said
Comm: Prière à Notre Dame* Boëllmann
Postcomm: As I Kneel Before You**
Dismissal: Lourdes Hymn, approx 97 verses
Voluntary: Toccata*** Widor

Congregation of around 40, singing fit to take the roof off.

*at least, until the iPad I was playing from decided to close iBooks and return to the home screen, necessitating a hasty ending
**yes, I know, but I thought they'd sing it, and they did
***fortunately the iPad behaved itself for this one
Paul Hodgetts

Southern Comfort
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Southern Comfort » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:08 pm

They must have a better organ at Palazzola than they did when I was there a few years ago. Mendelssohn and Widor would have been impossible!

User avatar
contrabordun
Posts: 513
Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 4:20 pm

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by contrabordun » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:04 pm

It's a Viscount Regent 247 (IIP/47). Only internal speakers, so your knees get deafened but you can't really judge how much noise you're making further up the church. The recommended volume settings displayed on the console seemed to produce vigorous singing. I rather enjoyed it. I'd taken music to work on rather than perform, hence calling on iPad and ISMLP for repertoire!
Paul Hodgetts

Post Reply