Liturgical Tourism

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Peter
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Peter » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:49 pm

After the splendours of St Stephen’s, Vienna, the following Sunday saw me once again in the Church of the Holy Trinity in Roden, in the north of the Netherlands. As with all my previous visits there it was a Liturgy of the Word with Eucharist (LoW&E), because of the shortage of priests. Two laymen took it in turn to lead or read, with a third acting as animateur, plus another at the organ. The readings very clear and reverent, with a steady pace that some readers at my church (and I would imagine at many other churches as well) could learn from. However, there was no second reading.

Two books were provided: one with hymns and Psalms, the other (apparently home-produced) with texts for LoW&E, including several options for the Penitential Act and prayers in lieu of a Eucharistic Prayer, often with music. The opening hymn and paraphrased Gloria were sung to standard hymn tunes; those in lieu of the Offertory and at the end used tunes that were less familiar to me but also in the books. Most of the time the congregation was seated, the main exception being the Gospel plus a few other prayers.

As my nose was buried in the hymnbook at the time I didn’t notice at what point the Blessed Sacrament appeared on the altar or where it had been previously, and I was rather disconcerted to hear it described as “bread” rather than using an expression that would give a clearer indication that it had been consecrated – something my own PP would definitely have disapproved of!

The service lasted an hour, and gave the impression that the people were doing their best to make it a real celebration even without a priest. There were about 40 there, mostly old, but a good community spirit including lots of hand shaking at the Sign of Peace, and coffee afterwards, for which I did not stay.


For my final Mass of this year’s European jaunt I was in Pont-Écrepin in Normandy, a church I last visited in November, when it was fairly full for a Remembrance Day service, complete with banners and tricouleurs; on a previous visit there was a lot of participation by the many children present. This time was rather different: I didn’t see any children; there were about 15 people in the choir and just over twice that in the rest of the congregation. The service sheet included texts of all the readings plus the hymns, including some sections in bold type, though little notice seemed to be taken of these, with some people in the congregation joining in the bits that weren’t bold and which I had assumed were for choir only. The only musical extracts included in the sheet were for the Psalm response, which bore hardly any resemblance to what was actually sung (the verses of the Psalm were spoken), and the invocation at the Prayer of the Faithful.

The opening and closing hymns, plus the Penitential Act and paraphrased Gloria, Credo, Sanctus and Agnus Dei were all sung in responsorial settings, though some verses also included responses and even where no response was indicated people still joined in. The Gloria verses were a much shorter version of the standard text; the refrain of the Credo went “I believe in God who sings and makes life sing” and even the verses had more to do with singing than with articles of faith. The Sanctus refrain had only two “Holy”s, not three, and “God of hosts” was replaced by “His love is for ever”. The Agnus Dei text had no mention of taking away the sins of the world. Is the Church in France more lenient about paraphrased texts or do individual parishes not bother about breaking the rules? At least one rule that they did follow (which most parishes in England seem to ignore, presumably not having read the GIRM properly) was that everybody stood throughout the Eucharistic Prayer.

The congregation seemed very friendly, with lots of kissing or hand-shaking at the Sign of Peace, and one person spoke to me briefly afterwards. Two priests concelebrated, in contrast to the previous weekend, when there was none at all; I would imagine one was either retired or visiting, though I didn’t ask. The service sheet included notices for the week, including weekday Mass times at various other churches in the surrounding villages.

alan29
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:38 pm

Its interesting that the French seem not to have got the message about not using paraphrases of the gloria etc.

markyboy2000
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by markyboy2000 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:00 pm

Not just in France. I was at a West London parish two weeks ago, still singing the Salazar Gloria with gusto.

alan29
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:32 am

Its a really good joyful setting.
Alas there seem to be no simple, memorably and zingy setting for the new translation.
Unless people know different ......

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mcb
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by mcb » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:07 pm

alan29 wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:32 am
Its a really good joyful setting.
Alas there seem to be no simple, memorably and zingy setting for the new translation.
Unless people know different ......
You might almost suspect that the new translation was deliberately constructed to impede memorableness and zinginess. And on earth peace to people of good will, I ask you...

Southern Comfort
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Southern Comfort » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:19 pm

mcb wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:07 pm
alan29 wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:32 am
Its a really good joyful setting.
Alas there seem to be no simple, memorably and zingy setting for the new translation.
Unless people know different ......
You might almost suspect that the new translation was deliberately constructed to impede memorableness and zinginess. And on earth peace to people of good will, I ask you...
Yes, indeed! Those people are largely gone now, but their destructive legacy lives on. :(

alan29
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:48 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:19 pm
mcb wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:07 pm
alan29 wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:32 am
Its a really good joyful setting.
Alas there seem to be no simple, memorably and zingy setting for the new translation.
Unless people know different ......
You might almost suspect that the new translation was deliberately constructed to impede memorableness and zinginess. And on earth peace to people of good will, I ask you...
Yes, indeed! Those people are largely gone now, but their destructive legacy lives on. :(
The Gloria translation is almost anti-musical with its lumpy rhythms.
I seem to remember a Canadian bishop saying that the new translations are more musical than the old ones. Well that made me choke on my coffee!

Keraulophon
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Keraulophon » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:30 pm

Curious that those responsible for the current English language text for the Mass actually used the inclusive term "people" in that phrase, as opposed to their usual preference for "men".

alan29
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:42 pm

Keraulophon wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:30 pm
Curious that those responsible for the current English language text for the Mass actually used the inclusive term "people" in that phrase, as opposed to their usual preference for "men".
It must have slipped through, given that inclusive language usually brings them out in a rash.

blackthorn fairy
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by blackthorn fairy » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:55 am

Re the 'people of good will' bit:
Two points (1) Yes, 'people' is fine (see also la gente in Italian and les gens in French - we are not the only language with a truly non-gender-specific noun) and could have been used in other places! and (2) how do other languages translate the 'of good will' bit? I remember very early on we had 'people who are God's friends' which is also unsatisfactory.

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Nick Baty
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Nick Baty » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:32 pm

Had to look up an old missal to check it was "peace to his people on earth".
Feels as though we have natural stresses on "peace", "people" and "earth".
Present translation, it's so easy to end up with the stresses on "earth" and "people".
But I've had a large gin. :oops:
In one of my settings, in an attempt to get "peace" on a strong beat, I've ended up with "and" and "will" on one too.
But it's in 7/8 – perhaps I'd had a gin then too! :D

Keraulophon
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Keraulophon » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:12 pm

Of course, I'm delighted that those responsible for the current non-Latin texts have decided to use inclusve language for once and admit that non-mascuine persons may be "of goodwill". However, if we are going to examine the minutiae, they'd have had a good excuse in the Gloria, because hominibus is the dative plural of the masculine noun homo. So I still wonder why they decided to jump away from the masculine at this point.

Dom Perignon
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Dom Perignon » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:05 pm

I hate to be a party pooper, but the last 9 postings have had virtually nothing to do with Liturgical Tourism. When I get a bit of time later I will set up a new topic for the translation issues and move the relevant postings to it so that this thread can properly reflect its title and the translation debate can continue down it's own route.
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Nick Baty
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Nick Baty » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:05 pm

That would be very sad. The conversation has flowed from someone's experiences. Without that, it would just be "What I did on me 'ollydays".

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