Liverpool Synod Hymn

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir


alan29
Posts: 1151
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Liverpool Synod Hymn

Post by alan29 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:58 pm

You have to wonder about one event hymns.
Was there nothing suitable among the thousands out there?

markyboy2000
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:59 pm
Parish / Diocese: Middlesbro

Re: Liverpool Synod Hymn

Post by markyboy2000 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:24 pm

alan29 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:58 pm
You have to wonder about one event hymns.
Was there nothing suitable among the thousands out there?
A one-hit wonder if ever there was.

Southern Comfort
Posts: 1872
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Liverpool Synod Hymn

Post by Southern Comfort » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:43 pm

Ghastly! And probably holding the world record for the number of parallel fifths between melody and bass!

User avatar
Nick Baty
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:27 am
Parish / Diocese: Everton, Liverpool
Contact:

Re: Liverpool Synod Hymn

Post by Nick Baty » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:27 pm

And click here for a true Liverpool anthem, where the tune (at least), Merseyside, was commissioned for the laying of the foundation stone of the Metropolitan Cathedral. You’ll have to spool forward to 1’53”.

Southern Comfort
Posts: 1872
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Liverpool Synod Hymn

Post by Southern Comfort » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:06 pm

Nick Baty wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:27 pm
And click here for a true Liverpool anthem, where the tune (at least), Merseyside, was commissioned for the laying of the foundation stone of the Metropolitan Cathedral. You’ll have to spool forward to 1’53”.
This tune is normally named KING DIVINE. I don't know of any hymn book that gives the composition date, but if 1933 is correct (Rigby didn't die until 1952) then hymnary.org is wrong in stating that the copyright in it is controlled by Continuum. It became public domain 13 years ago.

Further trivia: the original tune to the text Hail. Redeemer, King Divine was REX by W. H. Grattan Flood, a distinguished Irish composer who died in 1928. I first encountered this setting in the Irish Redemptorist Hymn Book. The text has also been used with Sir George Elvey's ST GEORGE'S, WINDSOR.

It appears that the original text contains more verses than the ones usually found in our standard books, which are 1, 6, 2, 3:
1. Hail Redeemer, King divine!
Priest and Lamb, the throne is thine;
King, whose reign shall never cease,
Prince of everlasting peace.

Refrain
Angels, saints and nations sing:
"Praised be Jesus Christ our King;
Lord of life, earth, sky and sea,
King of love on Calvary!"

2. King most holy, King of truth,
Guard the lowly, guide the youth;
Christ the King of glory bright,
Be to us eternal light.

3. Shepherd-king, o'er mountains steep
Homeward bring the wandering sheep;
Shelter in one royal fold
States and kingdoms, new and old.

4. Crimson streams, O King of grace,
Drenched thy thorn-crowned head and face;
Floods of love's redeeming tide
Tore thy hands, thy feet, and side.

5. Eucharistic King, what love
Draws thee daily from above,
Clad in signs of bread and wine :
Feed us, lead us, keep us thine!

6. King, whose name creation thrills,
Rule our hearts, our minds, our wills;
Till in peace, each nation rings
With thy praises, King of kings.

7. Sing with joy in ev'ry home :
"Christ our King, thy kingdom come!
To the King of ages, then,
Honour, glory, love : Amen!".

alan29
Posts: 1151
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Liverpool Synod Hymn

Post by alan29 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:20 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:43 pm
Ghastly! And probably holding the world record for the number of parallel fifths between melody and bass!
Must have been a pupil of RVW.

User avatar
Nick Baty
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:27 am
Parish / Diocese: Everton, Liverpool
Contact:

Re: Liverpool Synod Hymn

Post by Nick Baty » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:39 pm

Verse 7
7. Sing with joy in ev'ry home :
"Christ our King, thy kingdom come!
To the King of ages, then,
Honour, glory, love : Amen!".
is, I am reliably informed, is an alternative refrain and is sung as such after the last verse in Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral!

User avatar
Nick Baty
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:27 am
Parish / Diocese: Everton, Liverpool
Contact:

Re: Liverpool Synod Hymn

Post by Nick Baty » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:50 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:06 pm
This tune is normally named KING DIVINE.
You are right, SC. "King Divine" is the tune by Mgr Rigby. "Merseyside" is the alternative by John Rush. In 1968, The Parish Hymn Book ascribed the copyright to Burns & Oates (now part of Continuum?) but, as you point out, Rigby died in 1952. But am I right in thinking one can bequeath copyright to another?
And doesn't this fascinating discussion prove that I don't get out enough? :lol:

User avatar
VML
Posts: 713
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:57 am
Parish / Diocese: Clifton Diocese
Location: Glos

Re: Liverpool Synod Hymn

Post by VML » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:42 pm

As JW hints on another thread, church musicians get a lot of flack one way and another, and we should be charitable in our critique of this song. I cannot call it a hymn. And it reminds me of multiple sit-com forgettable credits music. Oh dear..

alan29
Posts: 1151
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Liverpool Synod Hymn

Post by alan29 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:11 am

My only criticism of the song is that it sounds terribly dated.

Southern Comfort
Posts: 1872
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Liverpool Synod Hymn

Post by Southern Comfort » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:17 am

alan29 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:20 pm
Southern Comfort wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:43 pm
Ghastly! And probably holding the world record for the number of parallel fifths between melody and bass!
Must have been a pupil of RVW.
There's a world of difference between RVW knowing what he was doing and "breaking the rules" deliberately to achieve a certain effect, and composers who unwittingly break the rules because they didn't know of their existence or simply through poor training or poor craft.

Southern Comfort
Posts: 1872
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Liverpool Synod Hymn

Post by Southern Comfort » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:28 am

Nick Baty wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:50 pm
But am I right in thinking one can bequeath copyright to another?
No, I don't think so. If that were the case, lots of composers' later descendants would still be living off royalties. As it is, when the composer has been dead 70 years the work becomes public domain.

The whole area is of course a minefield. Publishers used to renew copyright, but composers cannot (because they are dead!).And because the law has changed, strange things have happened. I remember when Gabriel Fauré's music came out of copyright in 1974, 50 years after his death as the limit was back then, only to go back into copyright again a few years later when the time limit was extended to 70 years! And the limits are different in different countries, so some music which is in the public domain in the UK may still be in copyright in the US or Canada, for example.

alan29
Posts: 1151
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Liverpool Synod Hymn

Post by alan29 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:05 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:17 am
alan29 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:20 pm
Southern Comfort wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:43 pm
Ghastly! And probably holding the world record for the number of parallel fifths between melody and bass!
Must have been a pupil of RVW.
There's a world of difference between RVW knowing what he was doing and "breaking the rules" deliberately to achieve a certain effect, and composers who unwittingly break the rules because they didn't know of their existence or simply through poor training or poor craft.
There is. However I wouldn't want to assume who was who without asking them.

alan29
Posts: 1151
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Liverpool Synod Hymn

Post by alan29 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:06 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:28 am
Nick Baty wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:50 pm
But am I right in thinking one can bequeath copyright to another?
No, I don't think so. If that were the case, lots of composers' later descendants would still be living off royalties. As it is, when the composer has been dead 70 years the work becomes public domain.

The whole area is of course a minefield. Publishers used to renew copyright, but composers cannot (because they are dead!).And because the law has changed, strange things have happened. I remember when Gabriel Fauré's music came out of copyright in 1974, 50 years after his death as the limit was back then, only to go back into copyright again a few years later when the time limit was extended to 70 years! And the limits are different in different countries, so some music which is in the public domain in the UK may still be in copyright in the US or Canada, for example.
I thought composers could bequeath copyright to their estate.

Post Reply