Ordo Queries

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John Ainslie
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by John Ainslie »

John Ainslie wrote:The answer is contained in article 133 of the General Instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours, where it states that the four-week cycle starts on the First Sunday of Advent, the First ordinary Sunday of the Year, the First Sunday of Lent and Easter Sunday. When Ordinary Time restarts after Pentecost, it picks up the appropriate week of the cycle (Sunday number modulus 4, 0=4). No other resetting.

Fr Gareth: lest you should delate me to the CDW for heresy :evil:, I hasten to provide a small correction to the above. Ash Wednesday to the following Saturday is always counted as week 4 (because of Lent 1 being week 1), regardless of the week being observed on the three days preceding Ash Wednesday. :shock:

Peter Jones
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by Peter Jones »

John Ainslie wrote:Ash Wednesday to the following Saturday is always counted as week 4 (because of Lent 1 being week 1), regardless of the week being observed on the three days preceding Ash Wednesday. :shock:


Anyone got a scan of Brother Choleric's reaction to the supposed simplicity of use of the Divine Office? (Let me see...... was last week A or B or even AB?)
Any opinions expressed are my own, not those of the Archdiocese of Birmingham Liturgy Commission, Church Music Committee.
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mcb
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by mcb »

John Ainslie wrote:Next Sunday being the Baptism of the Lord but also the beginning of the first week of Ordinary Time,

Strictly speaking, tomorrow is the last day of the Christmas season, and Ordinary time begins on Monday.

Southern Comfort
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by Southern Comfort »

mcb wrote:
John Ainslie wrote:Next Sunday being the Baptism of the Lord but also the beginning of the first week of Ordinary Time,

Strictly speaking, tomorrow is the last day of the Christmas season, and Ordinary time begins on Monday.


Actually it's more complicated than that. The Baptism of the Lord is the last day of the Christmas season, but it is also the 1st Sunday of Ordinary Time, which begins at the same time. A real cusp of a day.

Some folk consider that the Christmas season, the "Season of Lights", does not end until Feb 2, the Presentation of the Lord (formerly Candlemas).

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mcb
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by mcb »

Southern Comfort wrote:Actually it's more complicated than that. The Baptism of the Lord is the last day of the Christmas season, but it is also the 1st Sunday of Ordinary Time, which begins at the same time.

What's your source for this, SC? I expect it's one of those things where different documents contradict each other once you look closely enough.

The Missal seems fairly unambiguous, though: Ordinary Time begins on the Monday which follows the Sunday occurring after 6 January (Universal Norms on the Liturgical Year, 44).

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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by Hare »

I suppose it is a bit like Christ The King being the 34th Per Annum

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mcb
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by mcb »

No, I don't think, so: Christ the King is the 34th Sunday in Ordinary Time.

John Ainslie
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by John Ainslie »

To clarify (hopefully :D ): in the Ordinary Time section of the Missal, the 2nd to 33rd weeks are headed 'Nth Sunday in Ordinary Time'. But the 1st and 34th weeks are headed 'Nth Week in Ordinary Time' and begin with the rubric 'On the first/last Sunday of Ordinary Time there occurs the feast of...' So there is no 1st or 34th Sunday in Ordinary Time. The term found occasionally in the old Roman Sacramentaries might apply: dominica vacat, meaning that the Pope has the day off!

Hare
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by Hare »

mcb wrote:No, I don't think, so: Christ the King is the 34th Sunday in Ordinary Time.


I know it is - what I meant was, if Baptism Of the Lord is technically the 1st, no one ever refers to it as the 1st. Likewise, no one refers to Christ the King as the 34th. Oh, never mind, I know what I meant. Shut up Andrew! :oops:

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mcb
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Re: Ordo Queries

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Hare wrote:
mcb wrote:No, I don't think, so: Christ the King is the 34th Sunday in Ordinary Time.


I know it is - what I meant was, if Baptism Of the Lord is technically the 1st, no one ever refers to it as the 1st. Likewise, no one refers to Christ the King as the 34th. Oh, never mind, I know what I meant. Shut up Andrew! :oops:

No, don't! :-) My point is that while Christ the King is in Ordinary Time (I haven't heard anyone trying to claim it's in Advent!), the Baptism of the Lord would seem to be in the Christmas season and not Ordinary Time, unless SC knows of a source that contradicts the Missal. SC?

It matters, I think? It certainly might make a difference to how the feast is celebrated.

Southern Comfort
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by Southern Comfort »

mcb wrote:
Southern Comfort wrote:Actually it's more complicated than that. The Baptism of the Lord is the last day of the Christmas season, but it is also the 1st Sunday of Ordinary Time, which begins at the same time.

What's your source for this, SC? I expect it's one of those things where different documents contradict each other once you look closely enough.

The Missal seems fairly unambiguous, though: Ordinary Time begins on the Monday which follows the Sunday occurring after 6 January (Universal Norms on the Liturgical Year, 44).


Try Lectionary Vol I, p. 639. The heading at the top of the page says unambiguously

First Sunday in Ordinary Time
THE BAPTISM OF THE LORD

Same thing happens on pp. 735 and 833 (Years B and C).

It's similar to Christ the King in all three years of the cycle, which carries the heading

Last Sunday in Ordinary Time
OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, UNIVERSAL KING

The only difference is that Christ the King is a solemnity and the Baptism of the Lord is a feast. Apart from that, typographically they are identical.

However, in the General Introduction to the Lectionary for Mass, section 5 (Ordinary Time), subsection a, para 103 indeed begins "Ordinary Time begins on the Monday after the Sunday following 6 January....."

BUT

para 104, subpara 1, begins "The Sunday on which the feast of the Baptism of the Lord falls replaces the first Sunday of Ordinary Time...."

In the Missal itself, on page 498 we read that Ordinary Time "begins on the Monday following the Sunday after 6 January", but on the facing page, under the heading "FIRST WEEK IN ORDINARY TIME", we read "On the first Sunday in Ordinary Time there occurs the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord, pp. 226-230."

The reason for this is that the 1st Sunday in Ordinary Time is the feast of the Baptism of the Lord, but on the remaining weekdays of the 1st week the formulary on page 499 is used. (Normally weekdays in OT simply repeat the formulary of the preceding Sunday.)



In other words, the whole thing is a total mess. I stick by my opinion that this day is both the end of the Christmas Season and the 1st Sunday of Ordinary Time.

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mcb
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by mcb »

Southern Comfort wrote:In other words, the whole thing is a total mess.

Agreed! Thanks, SC, I remember it now from the last time we had this discussion in the forum. (Why can't you search the forum for a phrase rather than a word? Searching on "ordinary time" throws up hundreds of posts with the word ordinary and hundreds more with the word time. But I know that in there somewhere is this same discussion!)

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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by Hare »

mcb wrote:
Hare wrote:
mcb wrote:No, I don't think, so: Christ the King is the 34th Sunday in Ordinary Time.


I know it is - what I meant was, if Baptism Of the Lord is technically the 1st, no one ever refers to it as the 1st. Likewise, no one refers to Christ the King as the 34th. Oh, never mind, I know what I meant. Shut up Andrew! :oops:

No, don't! :-) My point is that while Christ the King is in Ordinary Time (I haven't heard anyone trying to claim it's in Advent!), the Baptism of the Lord would seem to be in the Christmas season and not Ordinary Time, unless SC knows of a source that contradicts the Missal. SC?

It matters, I think? It certainly might make a difference to how the feast is celebrated.


I was having a discussion yesterday regarding how to explain to children that on the unday after Epiphany we focus on Our Lord's baptism as an adult, then on " February he is a b aby again for Candlemas! there is a lot to be said for continuing the Christmas season until Candlemas!

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FrGareth
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by FrGareth »

Southern Comfort wrote:In other words, the whole thing is a total mess. I stick by my opinion that this day is both the end of the Christmas Season and the 1st Sunday of Ordinary Time.

I think I'm with SC on this one. Logically, it is both since the documents identify it as both one and the other.

Now, consider the Sacred Triduum. Is any part of it in Lent? Is any part of it in Eastertide? How much of Easter Sunday is Triduum and how much is in Eastertide. Is it in both?
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Gwyn
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by Gwyn »

Does this mean that Alma Redemptoris gives way to Ave Regina on the Monday after The Baptism of Our Lord? Or does this happen from February 2nd?

"I may have it completely wrong" is always option 3.

Gwyn.

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