Unity with Liturgical Diversity

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Southern Comfort
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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by Southern Comfort » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:55 pm

presbyter wrote:
Southern Comfort wrote:At least one of them is still using the 1662 Prayer Book.


Really? Just for Morning and Evening Prayer or for the Eucharist too? The BCP Eucharistic rite is hardly Catholic in its theology.


Just MP and EP, as far as I am aware.

NorthernTenor
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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by NorthernTenor » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:16 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:At least one of them is still using the 1662 Prayer Book.


Do you have the details, SC? The Book of Divine Worship, which includes Morning and Evening Prayer, is the text approved by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the US Bishops' Conference, at the prompting of Pope John Paul II. Use of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, even for MP and EP, would be doubly odd, as the Episcopal Church from which the Anglican Use congregations separated has its own BCP, with its roots as much in the liturgy of the Scottish Episcopal Church as the English Prayer Books of 1662 and 1928.
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NorthernTenor
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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by NorthernTenor » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:49 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:I think John may have a vague remembrance of the fact that there were virtually no Old Testament readings in the preconciliar missal. Less scripture, rather than little scripture. Or perhaps he is thinking that we are encouraged to worship in spirit and in truth, and he doesn't think that a kind of self-service liturgical smorgasbord is in keeping with this.


Well, SC, John's uncharitable judgement on generations of Catholics who had not the benefit of the NO, and on those who now prefer to worship through the EF, is certainly spirited, as is your off-hand characterisation of a liturgical diversity that owes much the Second Vatican Council. I would, however, question the truth of both, and suggest that they're symptomatic of an Ultramontane approach to liturgy that has plagued the Church since the Counter-Reformation, and which reached its zenith in the 20th century. The later part of that century, however, saw stirrings of reform such as the Pastoral Provision of 1980, and we now have a Church that is sufficiently confident in the integrity and vitality of its liturgical traditions as to encourage a further degree of diversity. I, for one, hope that this will be an element of our welcome to Anglo-Catholic congregations who seek union with us. We may even learn something from the experience.
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Gwyn
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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by Gwyn » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:07 am

The Archbishop of Westminster on the Personal Ordinariates
The Archbishop of Westminster and President of the Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales, Vincent Nichols, writes for The Catholic Herald on the still-unnamed Apostolic Constitution:

21 October 2009

The announcement of this Apostolic Constitution has come as a surprise. So, too, has the generosity of its measures. It is important to understand its context as well as its content.

The Apostolic Constitution is the response of Pope Benedict to the approaches which have been made to the Holy See by groups of Anglicans, in different parts of the world, asking for full visible communion within the Catholic Church. It is, then, a response, not an initiative, by the Holy See. It is a response designed to establish a provision which will be equitable and uniform in whatever part of the world it may be taken up.

It has a particular purpose: to permit those who wish to live their faith in full visible union with the See of Peter to do so while also preserving elements of the distinctive Anglican spiritual and liturgical patrimony. So this is a response to those who have declared that they share the common Catholic faith and accept the Pope's ministry as something Christ willed for the Church. In the words of Cardinal Levada: "For them, the time has come to express this implicit unity in the visible form of full communion." As Archbishop Rowan Williams and I said in our joint statement: "The announcement of this Apostolic Constitution brings to an end a period of uncertainty for such groups who have nurtured hopes of new ways of embracing unity with the Catholic Church."

Much work now opens up, not only for those who hold such faith and will have to consider carefully the formal response of the Holy See, but also for the Catholic community. In approaching this work, some important perspectives have to be kept in mind.

First, this response does not alter our determined and continuing dedication to the pathway of mutual commitment and cooperation between the Church of England and the Catholic Church in this country. The foundations of all the joint work in ARCIC and the International Anglican Roman Catholic Commission for Unity and Mission make clear the path we follow together. An Anglo-Catholic tradition will continue to be a part of the Church of England, nurtured by those who cherish this tradition while not ready to accept the current jurisdiction of the Holy See.

We also need to appreciate what this moment makes clear about the mind of Pope Benedict XVI. I believe this is another illustration of his desire to achieve reconciliation with those who are estranged from the Catholic Church and who show a willingness to be reconciled. This desire is clearly one of the priorities of his pontificate. As he has written: "In our days, when in vast areas of the world the faith is in danger of dying out like a flame which no longer has fuel, the overriding priority is to make God present in this world and to show men and women the way to God. Not just any god, but the God who spoke on Sinai; to that God whose face we recognise in a love, which presses 'to the end' (cf John 13.1) - in Jesus Christ, crucified and risen ... So if the arduous task of working for faith, hope and love in the world is presently (and in various ways, always) the Church's real priority, then part of this is also made up of acts of reconciliation, small and not so small." (Letter to Bishops, March 10 2009). Reconciliation, then, is a part of the proclamation of the Gospel.

Pope Benedict, we have to remember, is also ready to allow the breadth of the expressions of Catholic life to find their place in the Church. In that same letter he wrote: "But should not the great Church also allow herself to be generous in the knowledge of her great breadth, in the knowledge of the promise made to her? Should not we, as good educators, also be capable of overlooking various faults and making every effort to open up broader vistas?"

The Holy Father clearly believes that legitimate diversity does not threaten the unity of the Church, a unity which is essentially of faith, expressed in visible communion and in the witness of life lived in conformity to the call of the Gospel. While this Apostolic Constitution establishes a single framework for the universal Church, clearly much detail will have to be established locally. Alongside the Constitution there will have to be agreements about the way forward and the practical steps by which Personal Ordinariates, if and when they are established, will be an integral part of the Catholic community, working in close unity with the dioceses of England and Wales. These matters are now to be considered both locally and in close consultation with the Holy See.

This is an extraordinary moment. It is a challenge and an opportunity on many fronts. I salute the courage and generosity of Pope Benedict who has again shown an open and loving heart, just as one would expect of a Holy Father.

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presbyter
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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by presbyter » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:00 pm

I'm wondering where most of the requests for communion with Rome are coming from. Anyone care to guess which country?
That press release talks of Anglicans - not specifically C of E.

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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by NorthernTenor » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:40 pm

presbyter wrote:I'm wondering where most of the requests for communion with Rome are coming from. Anyone care to guess which country?
That press release talks of Anglicans - not specifically C of E.


We know that the Traditional Anglican Communion - an international association of conservative Anglican churches out of communion with the Anglican Communion and the Archbishop of Canterbury - is at an advanced stage of talks with Rome. More significantly for the UK, which has little TAC presence, we know that two of the Church of England's 'flying bishops' have held talks with Rome. The flying episcopate was set up to provide pastoral oversight of Anglo-Catholic parishes that, on doctrinal grounds, feel unable to cooperate with their own territorial bishops. Many of these parishes are members of 'Forward in Faith', a formal association of Anglo-Catholic parishes in the UK, Australia and North America. One of the flying bishops, together with the secretary of Forward in Faith UK, issued a cautious but positive response to Rome's announcement soon after it was made. How many UK Anglo-Catholics will feel the time has come to put up? It will be interesting to see how events develop. As a convert myself, I hope for the best.
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alan29
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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by alan29 » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:34 pm

I wonder if they will be expected to ascribe to Humanae Vitae etc.

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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by NorthernTenor » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:38 pm

alan29 wrote:I wonder if they will be expected to ascribe to Humanae Vitae etc.


No more or less than is expected of us, I expect.

ps it would be interesting to know what you cover with 'etc', and it is interesting that you assume we will know. :)
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alan29
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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by alan29 » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:14 pm

Well there are several areas where Anglican discipline around marriage etc seems to differ from Catholic. Anglican clergy have a certain leeway when it comes to blessing marriages where one/both party is divorced. One assumes this leeway will no longer apply. What will happen if a parish that "popes over" has a number of such couples?
I also have a slightly wicked image in my mind of the stereotypical celibate smells and bells loving Anglican priest. But I had better stop there.
And also I wonder if disaffected catholics of the smells and bells persuasion will feel encouraged to join these communities as a refuge. Will there be a place for bi-ritualism?

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presbyter
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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by presbyter » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:35 pm

alan29 wrote:Will there be a place for bi-ritualism?
I guess that will probably just happen, as it already does to some extent amongst some groups of laity who just get on with going to Mass/the Divine Liturgy, wherever they may be and according to whatever rite is available - rather than whatever rite they belong to. It even happens across Churches (capital C intentional) - as I discovered recently here on chatting to a new "parishioner". She's a very recent Ukrainian immigrant - so I explained that there's a Ukrainian Catholic rite once a month, a couple of miles away .... "Oh I know", said she. "I have been once and will go again next month ..... but I'm Orthodox, by the way. Catholic/Orthodox - it doesn't matter to me - it's all the same." She's doing her own " bottom up" approach to unity rather than any official "top down" approach.

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presbyter
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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by presbyter » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:05 pm

alan29 wrote:.... discipline around marriage .....


Not talking about divorced and remarried here - that's way off topic - but the general marriage discipline - for a marriage between two Catholics of different Rite - will be a matter for the Canonists to sort out. I suppose it will be something similar to the present Western / Eastern Rite arrangements - that (a now deceased) colleague of mine once got hopelessly and horribly wrong and was traumatised by the experience for years. (The couple weren't too happy either - as they ended up "getting married again" in an Eastern Rite)

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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by NorthernTenor » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:45 am

alan29 wrote:.... discipline around marriage .....


The proposed Anglican Use Ordinariates will not be seperate churches in communion with Rome, like e.g. the Ukranians and Chaldeans. They will be a part of the Roman Church, as much subject to its rules and discipline as you and I.

alan29 wrote:Will there be a place for bi-ritualism?


Given that, I expect there will be fewer institutional hinderances to bi-ritualism. There will also be fewer cultural barriers. Archbishop DiNoia said at the press conference which followed the announcement that he expected the Book of Divine Worship, already authorised for use by ex-Anglican congregations in the USA, would probably be the liturgical starting point for the new arrangements. The Book of Divine worship is far closer to the liturgy we know than the Eastern Rites.

alan29 wrote:I also have a slightly wicked image in my mind of the stereotypical celibate smells and bells loving Anglican priest. But I had better stop there.


I smell incense and hear bells at my parish church, whose liturgical practice is generally quite 'low'. There's nothing disordered, liturgically, morally or pschologically, about a regard for ritual. If it were so, then Catholics and Orthodox down the ages - and adherents of many other faiths - have been gravely mistaken. It's true that a celibate priesthood is likely to have a higher level of homosexual inclination than the average, but that can be observed in our own Church. There does seem to be a small element in Anglo-Catholicism that would disagree with the Church's moral teachings on sexuality, and for that reason it's unlikely to be amongst those who seek union.
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presbyter
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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by presbyter » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:34 pm

NorthernTenor wrote:It's true that a celibate priesthood is likely to have a higher level of homosexual inclination than the average.


Than the average what?

NorthernTenor
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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by NorthernTenor » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:22 am

presbyter wrote:
NorthernTenor wrote:It's true that a celibate priesthood is likely to have a higher level of homosexual inclination than the average.


Than the average what?


Than the average incidence in the male population.

That is not, by the way, a criticism of anyone or anything - least of all the discipline of celibacy or of our priests, of any sexual inclination or none.
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keitha
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Re: Unity with Liturgical Diversity

Post by keitha » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:28 am

There was quite a large piece on the proposals on the Today programme this morning, which can be heard on BBC iplayer. Content seemed fairly balanced (and interesting). One big irritant for me was that John Humphreys continually referred to this as an 'invitation' from Rome (rather than a response to requests), thus implying a degree of provocation by Rome.
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