festivaltrumpet wrote:Southern Comfort wrote:The issue would be that existing Catholics would not join the Ordinariate as such, but might well prefer to attend services there, since such services would presumably be valid expressions of Catholic liturgy, in the same way that Catholics who wish to can attend liturgies in the Extraordinary Form.
The Extraordinary Form is a very very poor analogy here as it is part of the Roman Rite. A better example would be an Eastern Church in communion with Rome. A Roman can attend such liturgies, but remains Roman.
Yes, it was a bad analogy. I was in a hurry this morning. Sorry! However, it does not detract from one of my basic points which is that we already have a situation where people can go to services of a Church that they do not technically belong to (as in your example of some of the Eastern Churches) or which they do not feel that they belong to (I certainly don't feel that I belong to the same Church that the Extraordinary Form users seem to espouse ─ but that's another thread, probably). The new dispensation will simply extend the choice available.
festivaltrumpet wrote:III. Without excluding liturgical celebrations according to the Roman Rite, the Ordinariate has the faculty to celebrate the Holy Eucharist and the other Sacraments, the Liturgy of the Hours and other liturgical celebrations according to the liturgical books proper to the Anglican tradition, which have been approved by the Holy See, so as to maintain the liturgical, spiritual and pastoral traditions of the Anglican Communion within the Catholic Church, as a precious gift nourishing the faith of the members of the Ordinariate and as a treasure to be shared.
Contrary to other posters who appear to interpret this to mean that all current texts are valid. I interpret it to mean that communities within the Ordinariate will be restricted to those liturgical books proper to the Anglican tradition which have been approved by the Holy See. I take this interpretation largely because it is exactly the text of the document. One presumes that Rome will be approving such texts in the near future, and ahead of the formation of the ordinariate in practical terms.
I have to disagree. The crucial phrase is the opening one,
This clearly means that the Ordinariate also has the faculty to celebrate....according to the Roman Rite. It says nothing whatsoever about which form of the Roman Rite, nor does it imply which texts of that Rite are being referred to.Without excluding celebrations according to the Roman Rite
I continue in my opinion that this phrase has been put in precisely (a) as an acknowledgement that a proportion of Anglo-Catholics are very comfortable with the Roman Mass, etc, and (b) as a provision which ensures that their comfort is not disturbed by having to change to something else ─ including a different form of words. This is exactly the same pastoral concern as if they were using the Book of Common Prayer.
festivaltrumpet wrote:Southern Comfort wrote: At present, they use the current translation of the Roman Missal, and so will presumably be able to continue to do that too.
One would imagine that Anglicans using the current translation do so because it is the text used in the Roman Church currently. For that very reason, one would imagine those Anglicans would wish to use the new Roman texts in common with the Roman Church. We do not yet know which texts will "have been approved by the Holy See", the current ICEL texts may not be on the list.
No, we don't (think BCP [in its various incarnations], BDW, Series 3, ASB, CW......!). And you may well be right about what some of them will prefer to use. But for me the main thrust is still the pastoral one. It's going to be much easier for Rome simply to say "Whatever you're using now is OK, as long as it has been approved by an episcopal conference, whether Anglican or Catholic". Can you imagine what will happen if they have to start checking through all the varieties of Anglican texts with the same laboriousness that they currently employ on ours? Heaven preserve us! It'll take for ever.
The fact that we are debating what the documents might actually mean simply proves my other point, which is that this whole thing has not been thought through properly. If we can't agree on what they mean, how on earth can we expect anyone else to? The Anglicans are looking for concrete and unambiguous answers to their questions, and they will not find them in these documents as yet.