Too clever for our (their) own good

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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musicus
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Too clever for our (their) own good

Post by musicus »

What do you make of the Bishop of Lancaster's recent assertion that university-educated Catholics have misinterpreted the liturgical reforms of Vatican II. Are we too clever or what? I suppose he is really having a pop at the laity, because most if not all of the clergy are presumably university graduates. :x
This week's Tablet has a good article by Nicholas Lash and some excellent letters on the subject.
I am leading a workshop for parish musicians next week; will my music degree and thirty years of practical parish experience disqualify me? :wink:
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docmattc
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Re: Too clever for our (their) own good

Post by docmattc »

If those of us with a university education have misinterpreted the council's documents, perhaps its because bishops, including Lancaster, have not made clear the 'correct' interpretation over the past 40 years.

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Re: Too clever for our (their) own good

Post by oopsorganist »

It's not me. I haven't read any documents therefore can't have misinterpreted them.

This links with our Diocese DVD..... the history of churches ( folding up parishes lack of priests issue) ... where the Bishops states that the mission of the church last century was to provide education to alleviate the terrible problem in the Irish immigrant community.. and that was the social justice of the Gospels at work.... then it would seem the population got educated and moved out and along......leaving so many inner city parishes under populated... ...I'm not that sure that the Irish were completely uneducated, pretty much all living in poverty wether educated or no ( I wonder if this a myth ?) off topic oops..... anyways, I am likely to find graduates from poorer nations mopping floors in Leeds as anyone else.......sort of thing.

So therefore, all this education and so few priests, so few people prepared to give time to music, underpopulated parishes and graduates misinterpreting the documents. Dear me. What went wrong?
uh oh!

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Re: Too clever for our (their) own good

Post by Psalm Project »

One could suggest that the poverty was imposed by another country!!! - but that, in this day and age, is water under the bridge.
Oh to be Irish... uh-oh... I am! I also have several degrees (including two masters) - Have 31 years of unbroken service under my belt...
What's all the fuss?

I do have a sense of humour though!
Bishops lack such, in my experience!
:D :lol:

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musicus
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Re: Too clever for our (their) own good

Post by musicus »

Psalm Project wrote:What's all the fuss?

Well, his words do seem to admit of only one interpretation: "Education is a Bad Thing, which gives the lower classes ideas above their station. Oh for a return to simpler times, when they would do as they were told!" In the same way, many American bishops thought they could tell their flocks not to vote for Obama.

I think that's worth making a fuss about.
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Nick Baty
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Re: Too clever for our (their) own good

Post by Nick Baty »

musicus wrote:will my music degree and thirty years of practical parish experience disqualify me?

I'm seriously *beep* off as I've just finished an MMus with a dissertation on form and function of music in the post-concilliar liturgy. Must have got it all wrong.

musicus wrote:Well, his words do seem to admit of only one interpretation: "Education is a Bad Thing, which gives the lower classes ideas above their station. Oh for a return to simpler times, when they would do as they were told!"

Interesting posters in the museum up here of Archbishop Downey warning Catholics against the dangers of voting Socialist. Yep, your grace, no problem: we're all starving because the dock overlords are stopping us working and we can't pay the rent on the slum in which we house our 30 children but don't worry we wouldn't dream of voting for a party that's going to make life better for us and our descendants.

Spool forward to the 1990s and the bishops publish The Common Good and my didn't didn't the Catholic Tory MPs get their twinsets in a tangle as they accused the bishops of telling us to vote Labour.

Of course, we grandchildren of Downey's generation wouldn't have noticed the 18 years of Tory misrule, unions being smashed etc if we hadn't been educated – doubtless a direct results of the bishops of England & Wales getting in on the 1944 education act with their battlecry of "without the schools no Church".

I feel a rant coming on – hold me down!

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Re: Too clever for our (their) own good

Post by sidvicius »

Is this comment available on line musicus?

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Re: Too clever for our (their) own good

Post by musicus »

I Googled "bishop of lancaster education", Sid, and found many references to it. Take your pick. Some of the sites look rather weird, so see for yourself. The Tablet is one of the better ones, but I think you need to be a subscriber to access it in detail.
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Re: Too clever for our (their) own good

Post by Gabriel »

The interview with the Bishop of Lancaster was with Zenit.

The quotation that set the ball rolling was:
One of the great truths recognized by the Second Vatican Council is that the Church is part of human history and culture. Therefore, it shouldn't surprise us that the shadows cast by the distortion of education, and corresponding societal changes, have also touched members of the Church. As Pope Benedict XVI puts it, even in the Church we find hedonism, selfishness and egocentric behavior.
The Second Vatican Council tends to be misinterpreted most by Catholics who have had a university education -- that is, by those most exposed to the intellectual and moral spirit of the age. These well-educated Catholics have gone on to occupy influential positions in education, the media, politics, and even the Church, where they have been able to spread their so-called loyal dissent, causing confusion and discord in the whole church.
This failure of leadership has exacerbated the even greater problem of the mass departure from the Church of the working-class and poor. For example, the relentless diatribe in the popular media against Christianity has undermined the confidence of the ordinary faithful in the Church.
I strongly support Catholics receiving a university education, but we have to ensure that they also have a firm grounding in the fullness of the faith from an early age in our homes, schools and parishes, and that they are equipped to challenge the erroneous thinking of their contemporaries
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Re: Too clever for our (their) own good

Post by musicus »

Thank you very much, Gabriel. :P
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Re: Too clever for our (their) own good

Post by Gwyn »

...I strongly support Catholics receiving a university education, but we have to ensure that they also have a firm grounding in the fullness of the faith from an early age in our homes, schools and parishes, and that they are equipped to challenge the erroneous thinking of their contemporaries

Sounds about right to me. The last bit - italicised - is bang on the money.

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Re: Too clever for our (their) own good

Post by musicus »

Maybe, Gwyn. But it was precisely that paragraph that struck me as contradicting his earlier ones. Look at the gross generalisations in the second paragraph, for example.
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