World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

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ChrisC
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World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

Post by ChrisC »

http://www.wyd2008.org/index.php/en/australian_parishes_schools/wyd08_mass_setting

PDFs and audio files for your delectation, or, possibly, bewilderment...

docmattc
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Re: World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

Post by docmattc »

WYD website wrote:The official Mass Setting will be performed during the major WYD08 Masses.
The mass setting is for parishes to learn and perform in the lead-up to WYD08. This will also help parishes to familiarise themselves with the official Mass Setting when it's performed for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI and the hundreds and thousands of youth in July.
[my italics]

Anyone else feel uncomfortable with the concept of the Mass setting being performed for the presider and congregation rather than prayed by them (or even on their behalf by a choir)

I'm on a mac at work so can't listen to it but looking at the tadpoles it seems easy enough to sing. I'm a bit surprised at the text of the Sanctus; it falls into the trap which attracts criticism in so many of the modern settings. Should the text not be "Holy holy holy. Lord God of..." rather than "Holy holy Holy Lord. God of..."?

Have Australia released the new translation? This composer seems to have access to it.

ChrisC
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Re: World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

Post by ChrisC »

I missed that entirely - and share a certain discomfort about it.
The notes at the Liturgy Office website say that they have had specific permission to use the new translation.

John Ainslie
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Re: World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

Post by John Ainslie »

docmattc wrote:Should the text not be "Holy holy holy. Lord God of..." rather than "Holy holy Holy Lord. God of..."?

The text is actually 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord, God of hosts'. Note the intrusive 'is', for which there is no corresponding word in the Latin. True, it is a faithful quote from Isaiah 6:3, but whereas the latter continues in the third person, the Sanctus text changes gear into the second: 'Heaven and earth are full of your glory'. It makes for a very strange bit of syntax.

And yes, this is the new ICEL text that we shall all be using from some time in the future.

JW
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Re: World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

Post by JW »

OK, the new translations are probably brilliant, my Latin is more than rusty and my tongue is firmly in my cheek so help me out. Why is Sanctus Sanctus Sanctus Dominus Deus Sabaoth translated Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God of Hosts? Wouldn't that have been something like Sanctus Sanctus Sanctus Dominum Deum Sabaoth in the original (possibly with an "est" in there somewhere? Dominus has to be either nominative or dative if I remember correctly. Are we addressing God or not? And shouldn't Sabaoth be better translated by "armies" or "heavenly armies"? Everyone knows what an army is (oops but armies are not politically correct now and we can hide the meaning by using hosts) but a singular Host is something completely different in the context of the Mass....

Looking forward to using the new translation and I won't be alive for the Hoo-Hah in 50 years' time when everyone has got used to it and decided that it should be improved.
JW

docmattc
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Re: World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

Post by docmattc »

John Ainslie wrote:The text is actually 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord, God of hosts'.

Cheers John, don't know how I managed to misread that.
Having listened to the setting now, I think the Sanctus suffers from trying to fit too many words into a bar. This seems especially true in the Benedictus. I like the Agnus Dei, except the very end (Donna nobis pacem) as I'm not sure how easily the congregation would cope with the sudden change from quavers to crochets, or the rests in the final English three bars.
ChrisC wrote:The notes at the Liturgy Office website say that they have had specific permission to use the new translation.

If we, hypothetically, had several people in the parish going to WYD, could we use this in order that they would know the setting before they got to Australia?


Of course in light of Sacramentum Caritatis
I am thinking here particularly of celebrations at international gatherings, [...] In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, it is fitting that such liturgies be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers of the Church's tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung.

One could ask why a new setting is required when De Angelis et al are available? :twisted:

Gabriel
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Re: World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

Post by Gabriel »

It seems that Australia has asked the Holy See for permission to use the new translation of the Gloria and Sanctus for World Youth Day and have received it. So pedantically that permission would be only for Australia.
But, and it is a big but, how many settings of the Gloria and Sanctus that we presently sing use the text as given in the Missal. I'm being pedantic here and counting a refrain in a Gloria, for example the Lourdes Gloria, as an adaptation of the text or the repetition of a line of text. My point is that we happily sing various levels of adaptation of the text - until we have them officially perhaps that is what these texts would be for us.

Personally I'm not convinced by the setting - it sounds to me as though the composer has not written congregational/liturgical music before. I would be interested to know how it works with a large gathering - and happy to be wrong.

Gabriel
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Southern Comfort
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Re: World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

Post by Southern Comfort »

Gabriel wrote:It seems that Australia has asked the Holy See for permission to use the new translation of the Gloria and Sanctus for World Youth Day and have received it. So pedantically that permission would be only for Australia.
But, and it is a big but, how many settings of the Gloria and Sanctus that we presently sing use the text as given in the Missal. I'm being pedantic here and counting a refrain in a Gloria, for example the Lourdes Gloria, as an adaptation of the text or the repetition of a line of text. My point is that we happily sing various levels of adaptation of the text - until we have them officially perhaps that is what these texts would be for us.

Personally I'm not convinced by the setting - it sounds to me as though the composer has not written congregational/liturgical music before. I would be interested to know how it works with a large gathering - and happy to be wrong.

Gabriel


The word on the street is that this music has been written by a Judge (in his 60s?) who only started to write music three years ago (and has never had anything published before). Another word says that he has wined and dined Pell, but that could be merely jealousy on the part of others. Certainly the music is not well crafted and shows no experience of how congregational singing actually works, let alone congregations of young people. I can't imagine that they will be able to pray through it, given that both texts and music will be unfamiliar. It's amazing that the organisers didn't think of getting Chris Willcock, Australia's premier Catholic liturgical composer, to do something.

Pace John Ainslie, it is not yet certain that this is the translation we will eventually get. It's certainly the draft which is awaiting approval in Rome, but anything could happen. Don't forget that the US bishops asked for numerous modifications to the text of the Order of Mass, and no one knows whether some or all or none of these will be approved, and whether all other English-speaking countries will have the same texts or not. Pell simply wanted to go down in history as being the first person under whose jurisdiction the new texts were used. Because he's on Vox Clara he was able to *beep* permission out of Rome. But who wants to go down in history as the person responsible for inferior texts? I suggest that he may live to regret it.

Southern Comfort
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Re: World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

Post by Southern Comfort »

Interesting that the board has censored the word I originally used, which was (changing one letter) scr*w. :oops:

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musicus
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Re: World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

Post by musicus »

Southern Comfort wrote:Interesting that the board has censored the word I originally used, which was (changing one letter) scr*w. :oops:

LOL! It's all automated - nothing personal!
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Gwyn
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Re: World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

Post by Gwyn »

I've just played it through, motivation to repeat the experience is conspicuous by its absence. :|
We won't be learning it.

Southern Comfort
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Re: World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

Post by Southern Comfort »

musicus wrote:
Southern Comfort wrote:Interesting that the board has censored the word I originally used, which was (changing one letter) scr*w. :oops:

LOL! It's all automated - nothing personal!


I know. How does it cope with the thing you use for opening bottles of wine, I wonder?

organist
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Re: World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

Post by organist »

More worrying is the exposure worldwide this music will get.

johnquinn39
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Re: World Youth Day Mass, with new translation

Post by johnquinn39 »

Looks like the new translation has arrived, in part, and in the US, anyway.

You will need to google into the USCCB to see the headline: 'Vatican Approves New English Translation For The Order of Mass'.

Then, go into 'Divine Worship' (commitee), for further information.

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