Oh dear!

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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Gwyn
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Oh dear!

Post by Gwyn » Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:45 pm

Thumbing through 'Laudate' I notice that 'God of mercy and compassion' has been gutted and corrupted almost beyond recognition, and 'Sweet Heard of Jesus' is completely missing.

On the other hand the dreadful 'Freely freely' is in there, as is 'Colours of Day' and much other 70's style crud.

Worrying isn't it?

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Re: Oh dear!

Post by presbyter » Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:56 pm

Gwyn wrote:the dreadful 'Freely freely' is in there, as is 'Colours of Day' and much other 70's style crud.


I think the mind of the publisher may have been that if the songs you mention were not included, the book would not have sold.

But don't forget also that there's "crud" in songs of former generations. Sweet heart of Jesus is there for sure in the 1912 edition of the Westminster Hymnal but by the time of the much more widely-known 1952 edition, on which I was brought up, it has ceased to be present between the covers. Why I wonder? Could it, perhaps, have been judged just as sentimentally "crud" as the songs above mentioned and therefore unworthy of inclusion? Theologically the text seems to me to be a little off-beam, with its demands that the Lord does this and that for us without any mention of the need for ourselves to respond.

(BTW - if you have a 1912 Westminster Hymnal - do browse through number 92 "Heart of Jesus! golden chalice......" - they don't write 'em like that anymore :wink: )

At the level of the Magisterium, the Church has been trying (not always successfully) to weed out "crud" since the Bull on church music of the Avignon Pope John XX.
Liturgiam Authenticam is the most recent attempt. If we begin to take that document seriously, it won't just be the "crud" of post Vatican II that is weeded out; it will also be the "crud" of post and pre Vatican I that has to go. Please, whatever we do, don't presume that just because something is old (and perhaps even popular still with elderly catholics) assume it is theologically, poetically and musically sound. For heaven's sake, there's even "crud" plainsong in the liber Usualis! If anyone's interested, I'll go and find the chant that has a twenty-six note melisma to the word et. Is that liturgical prayer or could it just be some ancient Cantor enjoying the sound of his own voice?

"Crud" of all times has to go!

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Post by sidvicius » Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:17 pm

So - if SSG were to publish its own hymnal, what would it contain? Is this an opportunity we have here? Could the Society provide a list of appropriate hymns and songs, and a place where the membership can vote for them? What would also be included - settings? psalms? litanies? none of the above?

Assuming a long list, I guess about 900 songs, given a long (years) gestation period SSG could produce something really amazing. It's members could have a little fun (and active 'congregational' participation) discussing the content, into the bargain. What do you think?

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Post by presbyter » Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:14 pm

sidvicius wrote:So - if SSG were to publish its own hymnal....


:shock: and who's going to find the initial funds for that then :?:

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Post by Gwyn » Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:27 pm

Good idea though all the same.

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Hymns/Songs/Litanies/Lists

Post by admin » Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:25 am

sidvicius wrote:Could the Society provide a list of appropriate hymns and songs, and a place where the membership can vote for them?

This is technically possible to do, but probably not within this forum. I think it better to allow you to type your own list in - I'm certainly not volunteering to enter 900 entries into a database - so it needs a little thought on how the present the information and what information is required.

From the outset, however, be clear that the possibility of the SSG producing a hymnal is very remote, for precisely the reason that presbyter mentioned - funding. Of course, if on-line copies were available upon payment (and suitable copyright permission obtained) so that there were no production costs as such, that might be another matter. But we're jumping the gun here!

What it would do, however, is to provide publishers of such tomes a free bit of market research; a database upon which the editors of Music and Liturgy could draw for suggestions from members for songs for specific weeks perhaps; and I can see its potential.

If I were to undertake the technical side, would members use it?
No point in starting this job if it serves no purpose, so let me know what you think by posting here.
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Re: Hymns/Songs/Litanies/Lists

Post by presbyter » Mon Mar 08, 2004 4:17 pm

admin wrote:Of course, if on-line copies were available upon payment (and suitable copyright permission obtained) so that there were no production costs as such, that might be another matter......


Speaking as one who has recently finished putting together, editing, type-setting and having printed an admittedly rather specialist hymnal for a particular Catholic institution, I can only say that the copyright minefield you are suggesting would be very tricky to negotiate. Some of the big publishing firms don't quite know how to deal with requests for "one off" permissions for permanent copies. Not everyone is as straightforward as Calamus to deal with and for some items which you might think Calamus is the agent, you'll find they are not when you want to make something permanent, rather than a one-off service sheet. One could pray that all the major music publishers would be like Faber & Faber, who couldn't find their original copyright agreement regarding one particular song and therefore didn't charge us a penny...... but you won't catch OUP or Boosey and Hawkes napping methinks.

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Post by Dot » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:47 pm

Oh dear!


Very informative topic title, Gwyn.

If any of you wish to pursue the exchange of appropriate songs, you could do worse than to join the thread entitled "Good songs" on the Sounds Off forum. It is as easy to enrol for that as it is for the general discussion forum, you don't have to be a composer, and it costs nothing!

Dot

PS I thought everyone had given up this game for Lent as my index page stopped updating itself on Feb 24th. Can anyone advise on this?

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No Vote, No Voice

Post by sidvicius » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:41 pm

To reply to Admin's very valid comments: my suggestion would indeed be a lot of work for one person. However, I notice at the bottom of the forum page there is a legend when you are logged in/logged out saying what you can/cannot do. One of the options is "vote in polls".

If an initial (very short) list of hymns/songs was posted as a poll (it would require a small website update to add a "Go to Polls/Voting" button), the list could then be extended by members. Thus, the problem of compiling the list goes away. Everyone has a list of favourites in their head - some have even been listed around this forum already.

If you can see your hymn listed you can vote for it. If not, just add it to the list. As Admin mentioned, such a 'popularity' database could be of immense value to publishers, even if SSG did not use it for their own compilation.

And to respond to Presbyter, please read the post. I did say IF, not WHEN. I also mentioned a gestation period of Years - I hardly think it was necessary to trash my idea with the f-word (funds) at the first post. I am well aware that such projects require time and money, but like all young things, they also require patience, nurturing and encouragement, particularly when they're just starting out.

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polls

Post by admin » Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:44 pm

Therein lies the problem - whilst an initial list could be posted as part of the forum, it would be a fixed list and this forum software cannot allow others to add to the list for the poll. The poll with extensible list would have to be something I coded myself - not too difficult to do - but it would be separate from this forum.

I'd not be too keen on a purely 'what is popular' list. There needs to be some criterion for the suggestion other than 'I like it'. I was thinking more along the lines of 'This is an appropriate song for the 93rd Sunday of year D because V44 refers directly to the gospel of the day' as being a good reason (though not an exclusive one) for putting something on the list. Then people could vote or add other (brief) comments.

Is this what you want or have I grasped the wrong end of the stick?
Keep nurturing the idea!
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Re: polls

Post by presbyter » Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:14 am

admin wrote:There needs to be some criterion for the suggestion other than 'I like it'.


How about the Church's documents, for a start!!! :D (In the hope that discussion about Spiritus et Sponsa and the Papal chirograph - see previous topics - might get going )
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Idea duly nurtured

Post by sidvicius » Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:42 am

I agree entirely with your comments, admin. If you could add the code, that would be great. That's what I meant by my comment about a new "vote/polls" button. Naturally the polling area would be separate, but still within the SSG site, thus easily accessible by forum (and other) visitors.

I think generally people in the SSG circle know the difference between popular and appropriate, and would be unlikely to vote/suggest a piece of music without good and valid reasons. However, there is rubbish out there - both new and old, so neither 'appropriate' nor 'popular' is necessarily 'correct'.

But we have to start somewhere. At this early stage, could we just avoid the intricate detail and have a bit of fun? It could easily link into a new thread where we all go and comment on how the votes are going.

There may come a time when the detail of the 93rd Sunday needs to be addressed, but let's cross that bridge (if we ever get there) when we come to it.

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