Westminster Cathedral

[Dot]

So I'd suggest a different analogy from your image of 'eating out', which I'd say colours the way we do things at Salford: cathedral liturgy can be like going round for dinner at your mum's, to see how it should be done.

In that case, I would never have eaten curry or most foreign food - what a shame!

[Tsume Tsuyu]

In that case, I would never have eaten curry or most foreign food - what a shame!

Oh that can't be right! There are lots of other ways of tasting foreign dishes.

I don't often go to Mass at a Cathedral but, when I do, I kind of want the liturgy to feel like a slightly posher version of what I get at home, maybe the same dinner, cooked better, and with napkins.

[precentor]

A quote from JPII

"The liturgy, like the Church, is intended to be hierarchical and polyphonic."

By our baptism we are worthy and called to participate in the divine liturgy which allows participation in the divine life. We must never attempt to debase the worshiping Church in heaven by "dragging it down" to meet us in a secularised world, our baptism does not invite us to do this. Rather we reach beyond ourselves to join in. This is real, actual, active and, most importantly, effective participation.

In this context, a Cathedral, especially Westminster, can be seen as a resource, a centre for liturgical excellence which is simply not possible elsewhere. By dint of circumstance: architecture, history, foundation, size and makeup of congregation, support of clergy, and finance, Cathedrals are sometimes able to strive to be this resource.

[mcb]

"The liturgy, like the Church, is intended to be hierarchical and polyphonic."

Of course, Pope John Paul wasn't referring to polyphony as a musical genre. His next sentence was:

"Active participation certainly means that, in gesture, word, song and service, all the members of the community take part in an act of worship"

By our baptism we are worthy and called to participate in the divine liturgy which allows participation in the divine life. We must never attempt to debase the worshiping Church in heaven by "dragging it down" to meet us in a secularised world, our baptism does not invite us to do this. [My emphases]

Using loaded words like that doesn't necessarily advance the argument. A liturgy which meets faithful Christians where they are, in a world of hunger and injustice by no means debases the Church in heaven. Or as another pope put it:

"...the Church should never depart from the sacred treasure of truth inherited from the Fathers. But at the same time she must ever look to the present, to the new conditions and the new forms of life introduced into the modern world." (John XXIII)

M.

[mcb]

In that case, I would never have eaten curry or most foreign food - what a shame!

You've never been to my mum's, Dot! You don't often find panthe kaukswe on a restaurant menu, but if you do it won't be as good as my mum's.

To respond to the point seriously, it depends what you mean as the liturgical analogy of eating exotic food. Multiculturalism? If so, I'd happily point out that our cathedral community includes a wide range of nationalities, and that we sometimes go out to meet them, musically: in the last year or two we've sung music from South Africa (Freedom is coming) and Latin America (Jaime Cortez's I rejoiced), and coming soon is Martin Foster's splendid adaptation of the 17th century Quechua piece Hanaq pachap cussicuinin (familiar to Classic FM listeners ).

All that and Palestrina, Allegri, Byrd, Messiaen, Poulenc, Tavener... A balanced diet, I'd say.

M.

[presbyter]

We must never attempt to debase the worshiping Church in heaven by "dragging it down" to meet us in a secularised world

Now I am confused and not sure at all what theology underpins that statement.

I'm also not sure what you mean by 'liturgical excellence', for the Office, Mass and Funeral Service I have celebrated so far today - all of which without any singing - are surely just as 'excellent' as what might happen in the celebrations in Westminster and my own cathedral.

Could you please clarify?

[precentor]

Woops, I think I may have flown a little close to the sun there! I ought to have made clearer the reference to the 'cosmic liturgy' with which our earthly liturgy joins.

I think what I'm trying to drive at, as it is increasingly on my mind, is my belief that what I might call 'Cathedral Liturgy' can, in fact, lead to a very deep level of effective participation which may even surpass what can be achieved by external activism. However, I don't believe that this type of participation is necessarily an obvious response or even a natural one for many people. Like all forms of spirituality, you have to work at it but the rewards are there. We as church musicians / liturgists would do well, I feel, to try to assist people in making this connection. However, recognising the value of solemn liturgy and choral singing must be a precursor to this.

Getting back to the idea of liminality, the Cathedral as a threshold between the sacred and secular, lifting people out of the everyday...

I should really have finished that quote from JPII. He goes on to point out that whilst the liturgy must always be properly incultrated, must also be counter cultural.

As Cardinal Arinze has said,

"the liturgy is primarily something that Christ does, not something that we put together. It is something that we receive, not something that we invent.?

I guess the thrust of my previous post ought to have been that by offering liturgy and music which strives to attain the highest artistic standards, Cathedrals present something to be received by peoples of all walks of life, backgrounds and even cultures, as these standards are universally recognised. There is much to receive (as there is in any liturgy, celebrated anywhere) and little is invented. For that one Mass on Sunday (out of six) there is less of the here-and-now - no Coventry Mass or Celtic Alleluia, but a concerted attempt to use the best means at our disposal to offer a way into the cosmic liturgy that may (hopefully) be more fully appreciable to the congregation.

Of course I don't expect parishes to do what we do - this is what I mean by the idea of resource. We can offer it, so we do, affirming the Cathedral as 'threshold'. I accept that our Solemn Choral Mass is counter cultural - counter even to the 'culture' throughout our Diocese. However, I can't accept that this, in the context of the many liturgies which take place in the Cathedral every day, is a bad thing.

[johnmac]

For that one Mass on Sunday (out of six) there is less of the here-and-now - no Coventry Mass or Celtic Alleluia, but a concerted attempt to use the best means at our disposal to offer a way into the cosmic liturgy that may (hopefully) be more fully appreciable to the congregation . . . . . .We can offer it, so we do, affirming the Cathedral as 'threshold'. I accept that our Solemn Choral Mass is counter cultural - counter even to the 'culture' throughout our Diocese. However, I can't accept that this, in the context of the many liturgies which take place in the Cathedral every day, is a bad thing.

Hi Precentor,

Sure - I agree with what you say to an extent, but the "here-and-now" you refer to are both (nearly/over?) 20 years old - they too are are, in the opinion of the music chosen for the launch mass for AYWL in Wembley Arena "best means at our disposal to offer a way into the cosmic liturgy that may be more fully appreciable to the congregation" (or similar). The Celtic Alleluia and Coventry Acclamations, and all the famous STMG also have a place in the 'history of catholic music'
. . my only question is for the one mass on sunday where you have less of the "hear and now" where it is at the other 5??

[mcb]

However, I can't accept that this, in the context of the many liturgies which take place in the Cathedral every day, is a bad thing.

Thanks, Precentor. No indeed: there's no denying the good things you do at Westminster. And the diversity that seems to be flourishing under your guidance is certainly one of those good things. It's much more reassuring when these discussions of what cathedrals contribute to liturgy are read in a context which recognises that there's more than one way of going about it all, because the aims of liturgy are in themselves diverse and complex. Just for a moment it looked as if you were arguing for something more blinkered and (apparently) with less understanding of what others hope to achieve in the way they go about celebrating the liturgy. (Or did you accidentally leave your computer unattended and logged in to the forum? You can't be too careful!)

I envy your resources. Not all dioceses show the same commitment to liturgy as a central part of their life, and some have little to show in the way of leadership and formation in liturgy, and a general sense that these things matter. In an ideal world I'd do things something like the way you do them in Westminster, though maybe I'd keep the high art for the quieter corners of our liturgical life, and cling fast to the idea that the cathedral's main mission is that of role model for parishes. But even though our Sunday Masses might seem a universe apart, I don't think we disagree all that much about what we're trying to achieve. As long as part of what we agree about is that there are lots of different ways of going about it.

M.

[nazard]

Precentor,

I have been reading this board for a long time, but you have finally given me the push I needed to get a login and chip in to the debate.

I want to give you every encouragement in what you do.

I am the organist and choir master of a small parish deep in the west country. We have what I guess you would find an unimaginable lack of experience and expertise. In spite of that we still find what you do a source of inspiration. A day in London is brought to a wonderful conclusion by vespers in the cathedral. I would love to stay for mass, but its a long way home and I have to get up the next morning...

Some of what you do is directly helpful to us. When small numbers of you sing the psalms to the plainsong tones with simple antiphons, it reminds us that things we aspire to are good enough for Westminster Cathedral. When you do complicated polyphony, it reminds us that we can strive to achieve more.

At Easter, the masterofmusic website posted your congregation handouts for the various Holy Week services. They will be a great help in planning next Easter, and I would love to see the handouts for other feasts.

I would like to come with some of my choir to one of your canticum populi days, but those of us who live out in the styx need much more notice to organise cheep train tickets, etc.

That is enough moaning. To get back to the original subject, please accept the thanks of all of us and be assured that you do inspire us.

nazard

[edbowie]

Nice to hear some contemporary music at the Mass to celebrate Cardinal Cormac's Golden Jubilee as a Priest.

We had the Celtic Alleluia-which took the cantor to the highest extremities of her voice-the Sanctus from the Inwood Gathering Mass and the Gaisford Eucharistic Prayer. Some decent improvisation as well.

Slightly off topic but this was all preceded by an excellent organ recital by John McGreal from the Brompton Oratory. Some of the finest Bach playing I have heard in a long time.

Ed

[Dot]

In the course of the SSG day at Westminster Cathedral, I was struck by the Vespers that preceded 6pm Mass. Scanning this thread, I notice that mcb has already said exactly what I was thinking:

This was a truly successful participatory liturgy, with the congregation heartily embracing their role in chanting the psalms and so on. It reassured me that musical excellence and congregational participation aren't alternatives; and made me realise how much the space dictates what you can do musically - a participatory vespers probably wouldn't have worked in the cavernous space of the main body of the Cathedral, but in the confines of the Lady Chapel it was a very effective and successful celebration.

I understand that the space issue in the main body of the Cathedral does conspire against the people's singing at Mass. As part of the choir away in the apse, it's impossible to discern their response. And yet that amazing building does let the choir sing out clearly. However, I would not choose to be shut away from the assembly like that on a regular basis; I'm returning to Mass today to be part of the assembly.

A little aside, which may not impress many but fascinated me.
When the presider intoned a phrase and the organ prefaced the assembly's response to it with a chord or two, the organist always matched the (somewhat wayward!) pitch of the presider. How? he had a pitch pipe at his side - goodness only knows how he responded so quickly - very impressive!

Many thanks to all at the Cathedral who made us welcome yesterday.

dot

[VML]

Perfect pitch is a fascinating gift!
V

[mcb]

When I sang with a visiting choir in St Peter's, Rome, in 1989 the regular organist of the basilica would elbow our organist aside whenever the celebrant was singing. He (the regular St P's organist) had a little electronic keyboard on top of the organ console, connected to an earphone in his ear, and he used this to track the wanderings of the celebrant. So whenever he struck up on the organ proper he was in the right key. Clever trick.

M.

[Gwyn]

He (the regular St P's organist) had a little electronic keyboard on top of the organ console, connected to an earphone in his ear,

What a neat idea.

I can pitch G by whistling the theme to The Archers. Not quickly enough to pin down our P.P.'s pitch though.