Dear all
A shameless plug I'm afraid. We are hosting a Gregorian Chant day at St George's RC Cathedral, Southwark on 17 June 2006. The day will involve various classes designed to meet the various abilities and levels of experience of all who participate in the event, and will be led by some of the world’s most experienced and learned musicians and chant scholars. The combined choirs of Arundel and Southwark RC cathedrals, together with the London Oratory Schola and the Choir of Southwark Anglican Cathedral will lead the singing and guest speakers include Dom Daniel Saulnier, monk of Solesmes and Head of Chant Studies at the Pontifical Institute of Music in Rome, and Dr Naji Hakim, organist of La Trinité, Paris. Whether as an organist, chorister, cantor, choral director, academic or just an interested amateur, the day will have much to offer and, in the light of the recent conference in Rome and Cardinal Arinze’s comments, should do much to restore Gregorian Chant to its rightful place in the Liturgy.
We are happy to give substantial discounts to parties from schools, monasteries, churches and any other groups. An application form and further details can be obtained from me - ngale@los.ac - or from http://www.academyofsaintcecilia.com. I look forward to seeing some of you at the event.
Nick Gale
Director of Music
St George's Cathedral, Southwark
Gregorian Chant
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
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Tsume Tsuyu
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:40 am
- Location: UK
I think I'm going to attend this, if I can. The programme looks well thought out, with something to suit everyone. I fell in love with chant when I did a chant workshop at an SSG Summer School, but I'm not yet convinced about restoring Gregorian Chant to its rightful place in the liturgy. I don't have a closed mind about it, though, and I'm willing to listen and learn about how we can re-introduce chant and use it more in our liturgies. I hope someone can tell me how we can make it more appealing to our young people!
TT
P.S. I'm pleased to see that SSG members get a discount!
TT
P.S. I'm pleased to see that SSG members get a discount!
Chant Day
Hi Tsume. We'd be delighted to welcome you to the cathedral for the Chant Day. Regarding youngsters, there will be about 60 of them at the Chant Day doing a workshop on chants of the ordinary suitable for children so we're doing our bit with the young too! And you are correct - there is a discount for SSG members - and further discounts for groups. The Cathedral is easy to get to - minutes from Waterloo - and the speakers are excellent. How often does Solesmes come to London? And how often do you get to hear Naji Hakim here?! Come on SSG members - you are all very welcome!
Chant lives OK
Just on the general topic of chant (though I can't come to the event) we experimented over Easter with using the Missa de Angelis for our Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. After a shaky start we were pleasantly surprised to find the congregation joining in -- and more strongly than they tend to do even for some of the better known hymns. Our PP had been sceptical, but was pleasantly surprised -- especially as our suggestion (and yes, the musicians did suggest it) came shortly before a request from our Bishop to ensure that everyone knew at least one plainsong setting of the Mass!
From our experience, there is still very much a place for plainsong at Sunday Mass (though we think the Sundays of Easter are enough for the moment -- Gathering Mass next Sunday!)
Enjoy the event -- hope it goes really well
From our experience, there is still very much a place for plainsong at Sunday Mass (though we think the Sundays of Easter are enough for the moment -- Gathering Mass next Sunday!)
Enjoy the event -- hope it goes really well
Crumhorn
(Finding new uses for wonderful old ideas!)
(Finding new uses for wonderful old ideas!)
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docmattc
- Posts: 987
- Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:42 am
- Parish / Diocese: Westminster
- Location: Near Cambridge
asb wrote:Well, who went? I did...............
And you didn't say hello!
It was a very interesting day (if a bit thin on caffeine!) but I remain unconvinced that my congregation would be more enriched by a chant based liturgy rather than a non-chant based one. But that's not to say I won't try the occasional bit of chant though to give a greater breadth of styles to the parish repertoire (in fact we did some on Pentecost Sunday).
Maybe if I'd just sat and listened to vespers I would have found it more prayerful than trying to sight sing in a language I don't understand from a musical notation with which I'm not familiar.
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Tsume Tsuyu
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:40 am
- Location: UK
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Tsume Tsuyu
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:40 am
- Location: UK
They couldn't spell Tsume Tsuyu, so I had to settle for my rather more boring alias.
The chant day was very enjoyable. Well done to all those involved in organising it. It was interesting to listen to Dom Daniel Saulnier from Solesmes talking about the history and the science of chant. As someone commented later in the day, watching him 'draw' what he was singing in the air as he chanted was very special.
Delegates could choose three workshops to participate in during the day. I chose Martin Baker's 'chant in the post-conciliar liturgy', Nick Gale's 'using chant in parishes' and 'chant in English', lead by Rev'd Peter Allan.
Martin Baker's workshop was not exactly as billed. Rather, he talked about the role of the choir and went through the talk he'd given in Rome last December. Delegates were encouraged to ask questions and there was an opportunity for discussion so all viewpoints could be constructively aired. I disagreed with one or two things he said. Firstly, he takes the view that the choir is better placed hidden from the congregation. His argument is that this doesn't then draw attention to the choir so the singing doesn't become a performance. I wrote before about my experience at Westminster: I felt completely detached from what was going on and could easily have sat discussing last night's TV for all I felt part of the Eucharistic celebration. That's the first problem I have with hiding the choir. Secondly, I understand that the choir at Westminster usually processes in after the servers and priest. The choir at Southwark did this too. In my view, this elevates the choir unnecessarily. The readers are not part of the entrance procession, so why is the choir? I agree that the choir should not be prominently positioned, but there is no reason it can't sit as part of the assembly, in the main body of the church as long as it's function is clear. GIRM says "In relation to the design of each church, the schola cantorum should be placed so that its character as a part of the assembly of the faithful that has a function stands out clearly."
The other thing I wasn't convinced by was Martin Baker's interpretation of full and active (or actual) participation. I think he was agreeing with something Cardinal Ratzinger wrote, saying, we are all, by our presence at Mass, joining in cosmic liturgy, coming together to celebrate the Eucharist and that this is our participation. The suggestion being that the congregation doesn't need to be able sing as long as it can join in by listening to the sublime music of the choir. I had a look at Cardinal Ratzinger's article 'The Postconciliar challenge vs. the Cosmic Liturgy'. He says that the choir is part of the worshipping community and can represent the community in prayer. I'm not sure I want to be represented by the choir in prayer. I do accept that one doesn't have to sing to participate, but GIRM is quite clear that the Sanctus, for instance, is the people's prayer, to be sung by everyone. Too often the congregation is excluded from this.
I hope this doesn't sound too negative, because I actually agreed with lots of things he said – about the importance of preserving beautiful sacred music and about choirs striving to sing well and enhance the liturgy and support the congregation, rather than being too ambitious and not fulfilling any of its functions properly. He also said that the choir shouldn't just sing to cover actions. I think I expected to disagree with Mr. Baker more than I did.
Nick Gale's workshop focused on using chant in our parishes. I'm not sure he entirely convinced me, but the questions that flowed picked up on some of the things I felt we should have been discussing. I wish there had been more time. Nick talked about the different chant resources available for parishes, and made some useful suggestions as to music choices to begin to introduce - we should look for pentatonic chants. He pointed us in the direction of a a website where you can purchase software that will enable you to type square notes on a four line stave - useful for creating music sheets for the congregation. This was all very helpful but didn't really assist with the question: 'How do you overcome the fact that our young people (I'm thinking teenagers but, actually, I could add myself to the list) don't understand Latin and have no desire to sing in a language they are not familiar with?' Nick has produced some material for KSs 2 and 3, I think he said, that he is using in the Oratory School, so pupils are becoming familiar with chant from an early age and enjoy singing it. This is great! He's willing to share this with other schools. Even better! But how do you get over the hurdle that few catholic primary schools have anyone with real music skills on the staff? And how does one persuade teachers who have grown up with the '70s and 80s diet of praise songs to embrace chant and teach it? It would need a properly organised approach from the diocese to make it happen: a dictate that chant will be taught and, where there are teachers without sufficient skills, diocesan musicians should be drafted in for an hour or so a week to assist. Until we have this sort of approach, we won't reach out young people, and they'll continue to be fed a diet of drivel until they drift away. It sounds as though Ben Saunders is doing fine things in Leeds, but I'm not sure how this is funded since funding would clearly be a hurdle.
My third workshop was all about chant in English, and led Fr. Peter Allan, who is a monk from the Anglican Community of the Resurrection in Yorkshire. He was terrific and what he said made me think, more than anything else I'd heard, that it might be possible to expose my parish (even the youngsters) to more chant without meeting huge resistance. However, just 'singing it in English' is not the answer because, as Fr. Peter said, to sing chant, one must understand where it comes from and what it's trying to do. He told us that chant is simple – that's why chant began, because so many religious and lay people were not musical. Once the square notes are understood, they are much easier to read than the round notes (something I'd already discovered for myself after an SSG chant workshop at a summer school), but the people don't even need the notes if the music is introduced, one piece at a time and over a long period of time.
Fr. Peter said it was important to remember that Latin chant is the language of prayer. English texts that have been carefully written ought to be able to be sung simultaneously with the Latin. He described chant as the "unbroken prayer of the Trinity" and talked about joining in with chant as if it has always been going on – a continuous note that you can join in with for a while, adding some shape to it, but then leave it to continue without you. I think that, for the choir I'm in at least, there would need to be some explanation of chant before we could just launch into it. Fr. Peter is co-author of a book – An English Kyriale. We sang through several settings of the Gloria from that book which would be suitable for use in a parish and would be picked up quickly by a congregation.
I haven't mentioned the other workshops, of which there were many that were far too technical for me, but that others seemed to appreciate. The full list is on the Academy of Saint Cecilia website.
Thanks for bringing the chant day to my attention, Nick. I understand it's the first time that the Academy of St. Cecilia has held such a large event – it was very well attended and the lunch was excellent. If I'd been given an evaluation form, I'd have said please, please, please provide tea and coffee, especially on arrival as some of us had come a long way. And please supply a map and stick a few signs on doors for the workshops. It took me ages to find 'the parlour'. In the end I found Fr. Peter Allan and clung to his, er, habit tails on the basis that, as his workshop was taking place there, he must know the way.
The whole event was interesting and constructive and everyone was really friendly and welcoming.
The chant day was very enjoyable. Well done to all those involved in organising it. It was interesting to listen to Dom Daniel Saulnier from Solesmes talking about the history and the science of chant. As someone commented later in the day, watching him 'draw' what he was singing in the air as he chanted was very special.
Delegates could choose three workshops to participate in during the day. I chose Martin Baker's 'chant in the post-conciliar liturgy', Nick Gale's 'using chant in parishes' and 'chant in English', lead by Rev'd Peter Allan.
Martin Baker's workshop was not exactly as billed. Rather, he talked about the role of the choir and went through the talk he'd given in Rome last December. Delegates were encouraged to ask questions and there was an opportunity for discussion so all viewpoints could be constructively aired. I disagreed with one or two things he said. Firstly, he takes the view that the choir is better placed hidden from the congregation. His argument is that this doesn't then draw attention to the choir so the singing doesn't become a performance. I wrote before about my experience at Westminster: I felt completely detached from what was going on and could easily have sat discussing last night's TV for all I felt part of the Eucharistic celebration. That's the first problem I have with hiding the choir. Secondly, I understand that the choir at Westminster usually processes in after the servers and priest. The choir at Southwark did this too. In my view, this elevates the choir unnecessarily. The readers are not part of the entrance procession, so why is the choir? I agree that the choir should not be prominently positioned, but there is no reason it can't sit as part of the assembly, in the main body of the church as long as it's function is clear. GIRM says "In relation to the design of each church, the schola cantorum should be placed so that its character as a part of the assembly of the faithful that has a function stands out clearly."
The other thing I wasn't convinced by was Martin Baker's interpretation of full and active (or actual) participation. I think he was agreeing with something Cardinal Ratzinger wrote, saying, we are all, by our presence at Mass, joining in cosmic liturgy, coming together to celebrate the Eucharist and that this is our participation. The suggestion being that the congregation doesn't need to be able sing as long as it can join in by listening to the sublime music of the choir. I had a look at Cardinal Ratzinger's article 'The Postconciliar challenge vs. the Cosmic Liturgy'. He says that the choir is part of the worshipping community and can represent the community in prayer. I'm not sure I want to be represented by the choir in prayer. I do accept that one doesn't have to sing to participate, but GIRM is quite clear that the Sanctus, for instance, is the people's prayer, to be sung by everyone. Too often the congregation is excluded from this.
I hope this doesn't sound too negative, because I actually agreed with lots of things he said – about the importance of preserving beautiful sacred music and about choirs striving to sing well and enhance the liturgy and support the congregation, rather than being too ambitious and not fulfilling any of its functions properly. He also said that the choir shouldn't just sing to cover actions. I think I expected to disagree with Mr. Baker more than I did.
Nick Gale's workshop focused on using chant in our parishes. I'm not sure he entirely convinced me, but the questions that flowed picked up on some of the things I felt we should have been discussing. I wish there had been more time. Nick talked about the different chant resources available for parishes, and made some useful suggestions as to music choices to begin to introduce - we should look for pentatonic chants. He pointed us in the direction of a a website where you can purchase software that will enable you to type square notes on a four line stave - useful for creating music sheets for the congregation. This was all very helpful but didn't really assist with the question: 'How do you overcome the fact that our young people (I'm thinking teenagers but, actually, I could add myself to the list) don't understand Latin and have no desire to sing in a language they are not familiar with?' Nick has produced some material for KSs 2 and 3, I think he said, that he is using in the Oratory School, so pupils are becoming familiar with chant from an early age and enjoy singing it. This is great! He's willing to share this with other schools. Even better! But how do you get over the hurdle that few catholic primary schools have anyone with real music skills on the staff? And how does one persuade teachers who have grown up with the '70s and 80s diet of praise songs to embrace chant and teach it? It would need a properly organised approach from the diocese to make it happen: a dictate that chant will be taught and, where there are teachers without sufficient skills, diocesan musicians should be drafted in for an hour or so a week to assist. Until we have this sort of approach, we won't reach out young people, and they'll continue to be fed a diet of drivel until they drift away. It sounds as though Ben Saunders is doing fine things in Leeds, but I'm not sure how this is funded since funding would clearly be a hurdle.
My third workshop was all about chant in English, and led Fr. Peter Allan, who is a monk from the Anglican Community of the Resurrection in Yorkshire. He was terrific and what he said made me think, more than anything else I'd heard, that it might be possible to expose my parish (even the youngsters) to more chant without meeting huge resistance. However, just 'singing it in English' is not the answer because, as Fr. Peter said, to sing chant, one must understand where it comes from and what it's trying to do. He told us that chant is simple – that's why chant began, because so many religious and lay people were not musical. Once the square notes are understood, they are much easier to read than the round notes (something I'd already discovered for myself after an SSG chant workshop at a summer school), but the people don't even need the notes if the music is introduced, one piece at a time and over a long period of time.
Fr. Peter said it was important to remember that Latin chant is the language of prayer. English texts that have been carefully written ought to be able to be sung simultaneously with the Latin. He described chant as the "unbroken prayer of the Trinity" and talked about joining in with chant as if it has always been going on – a continuous note that you can join in with for a while, adding some shape to it, but then leave it to continue without you. I think that, for the choir I'm in at least, there would need to be some explanation of chant before we could just launch into it. Fr. Peter is co-author of a book – An English Kyriale. We sang through several settings of the Gloria from that book which would be suitable for use in a parish and would be picked up quickly by a congregation.
I haven't mentioned the other workshops, of which there were many that were far too technical for me, but that others seemed to appreciate. The full list is on the Academy of Saint Cecilia website.
Thanks for bringing the chant day to my attention, Nick. I understand it's the first time that the Academy of St. Cecilia has held such a large event – it was very well attended and the lunch was excellent. If I'd been given an evaluation form, I'd have said please, please, please provide tea and coffee, especially on arrival as some of us had come a long way. And please supply a map and stick a few signs on doors for the workshops. It took me ages to find 'the parlour'. In the end I found Fr. Peter Allan and clung to his, er, habit tails on the basis that, as his workshop was taking place there, he must know the way.
The whole event was interesting and constructive and everyone was really friendly and welcoming.
TT
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TimSharrock
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 1:19 pm
- Location: Altrincham
Tsume Tsuyu wrote:Fr. Peter is co-author of a book – An English Kyriale. We sang through several settings of the Gloria from that book which would be suitable for use in a parish and would be picked up quickly by a congregation.
So far as as I can tell, the book seems to be currently unavailable, but some of the chants can be listened to, in mp3 format at http://www.mirfield.org.uk/music/index.html
Tim
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Anonymous
Chant software
If your looking for some free square note software, try this....
http://gregoire.tele.free.fr/
There are a few little bugs but on the whole it's pretty good. The package will work in English but it'll help if you can understand some french.
http://gregoire.tele.free.fr/
There are a few little bugs but on the whole it's pretty good. The package will work in English but it'll help if you can understand some french.
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organist
- Posts: 574
- Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:39 pm
- Parish / Diocese: Westminster cathedral
- Location: London
- Contact:
Gregorian chant
I was there too and really enjoyed it although I wasn't happy about Vespers being entirely in Latin or the style of the cantors' singing. But I'm a fan of Worth and Belmont! And I don;t like Naji Hakim's improvisations!
Tsume your excellent remarks could form the basis of an article in M usic and Liturgy - how about it? I was going to offer one but I haven;t got the time. I concentrated on the workshops dealing with chant in English. Fr Peter was excellent. The abbot of Downside started by saying he was a poor replacement for our dear Alan Rees! It was good to see Westminster Cathedral music staff (3 of them) and many old friends. Well done Nick!
Tsume your excellent remarks could form the basis of an article in M usic and Liturgy - how about it? I was going to offer one but I haven;t got the time. I concentrated on the workshops dealing with chant in English. Fr Peter was excellent. The abbot of Downside started by saying he was a poor replacement for our dear Alan Rees! It was good to see Westminster Cathedral music staff (3 of them) and many old friends. Well done Nick!