Appropriate songs for primary schools

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir

Merseysider
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 11:21 pm

Post by Merseysider »

dunstan wrote: I'm not arguing that there's particular merit in using archaic language per se, but nor does our devotion have to be expressed in a range of subcultural vernaculars, be they "child friendly language", folksiness or rapper speak.


I totally agree.

I originally trained as a musician and taught the subject for several years. I retrained as a journalist and worked for the Times and the BBC and now find myself lecturing in media.

In both cases – music and journalism – we educate our young people in theory and practice. In neither case do we suggest that they imitate past styles although we expect them to learn them and to learn from them. Language moves – any reporter who now writes in the style of the Times in the 19th century will find little work. Musical language changes more slowly – pivotal points being the Renaissance, the Classical era and the 20th century. All eras produced wonderful – but stylistically different – music.

The melodies of contemporary pop music (may or) may not be suitable for worship but the basic harmonic structure is little removed from the 17th century – hence, the Mindbenders were able to construct "Groovy Kind of Love" from a Clementi Sonatina and the Toys created "Lovers Concerto" from a piece in Bach's Little Notebook for Anna Magdalena. Don't knock Status Quo for being "three chord wonders" – many classical composers were there centuries earlier.

We recognise musical shapes – there are norms – a wise man (I think it might have been Prof Tamblyn but I'm not sure) once said the Beatles were successful because they wrote music which people already had in their heads. In many ways we have not progressed from the 1960s (or do I mean the 1660s?). Why do we still love Pachelbel's Canon? Why do we find Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra difficult to take on board?

Give children a melody line from Pachelbel and they'll sing along far more easily than they might to several modern stomps I could mention. But at that same time what does the language of the Victorian era mean to them? In fact, what does it mean to any of use apart from warm nostalgia? I absolutely love "O Godhead hid" (textually and musically) but understand very little of it. Similarly, I can't quite grasp the refrain of "Moses I know you're the man".

We should think carefully about what we feed our children – and our adults too.
dunstan
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:42 pm
Location: Rugby, Warks
Contact:

Post by dunstan »

But musically it is often how we work outwards from the tonal norms that makes things musically stimulating - one of my big problems with Amazing Grace is that it is so often played with a three chord accompaniment, which is intolerably banal. Whereas if you listen to There is a green hill there is a richness of chromaticism which I found evocative even as a seven year old.

Children can stomach a surprising rich diet, both linguistically and musically.
It's not a generation gap, it's a taste gap.
Merseysider
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 11:21 pm

Post by Merseysider »

dunstan wrote:Children can stomach a surprising rich diet, both linguistically and musically.

I suspect that's what I was trying to say, although I was well outside a bottle of wine by then. But I would hate to see a return to children learning (by rote) "O loving pelican...." or "sweet are the flowerets we have culled..."
User avatar
presbyter
Posts: 1651
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:21 pm
Parish / Diocese: youknowalready
Location: elsewhere

Post by presbyter »

Just a thought

Do we need to make a distinction between

1 - songs appropriate for school assembly

2 - songs appropriate for Mass?

There will be some overlap, of course.

(I'm just thinking of Walker's Stories and Songs of Jesus)

Then given the criteria we are being asked to apply to liturgical songs by Rome, consider, for example, Walker's "Children of God". Does sound theology underpin that?

I'm only raising questions.
User avatar
presbyter
Posts: 1651
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:21 pm
Parish / Diocese: youknowalready
Location: elsewhere

Post by presbyter »

dunstan wrote:Either way, there's no place for some of the dumbed down, banal excrescences which a generation has been exposed to.


We will all have have our list of "These you have loathed"..... and sentimentality sticks. I am having to endure "As I kneel before you" tomorrow - don't ask - sung by two primary school classes.

But then, if we gave the children the Salve Regina (Hail Holy Queen) to sing instead, isn't the theology of that - it could be argued - just as askew?

I think I'm trying to make a plea for songs to be based soundly on Scripture and Tradition (in the theological sense of the latter).
User avatar
VML
Posts: 727
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:57 am
Parish / Diocese: Clifton Diocese
Location: Glos

As I kneel

Post by VML »

There might be some slight excuse for having 'As I kneel before you,' at a primary school. We've just had it in lieu of a plalm at a funeral, and it is currently used at most funerals here. I'm only the organist..

Yesterday I was in a school whose hymn book looked quite promising. But at assembly we had Colours of day, and children love it, it makes an impression on them. Being a three chord trick, it is a jumping off point for teaching the beginnings of harmony. It does come on my list of TYHL, but when I look carefully, the words are not all bad. I have to have an open mind: It has been in schools so long that for many young adults, it is the one hymn they can remember, so it turns up at very many weddings.
User avatar
presbyter
Posts: 1651
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:21 pm
Parish / Diocese: youknowalready
Location: elsewhere

Re: As I kneel

Post by presbyter »

VML wrote:so it turns up at very many weddings.


It's a wedding it's turning up at - As I kneel... that is
User avatar
VML
Posts: 727
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:57 am
Parish / Diocese: Clifton Diocese
Location: Glos

Post by VML »

On the other hand, and dodgy liturgy aside, sung quietly at the funeral of an 85 year old Indian lady whose great-great grandson was in the front row, it seemed OK.
Merseysider
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 11:21 pm

Post by Merseysider »

Been in my present parish for two years this week and have noticed that most common requests for funerals (we don't seem to have weddings) are Unless A Grain of Wheat, May the Choirs of Angels, Teach Me, O God (Walker), All That is Hidden and Christ Be Our Light – none of which they knew before.

Similarly, I've noticed that our (all girl) altar servers – all still in primary school – sing the refrains of these very loudly – and without books. Perhaps I should have a chat with them and see what they really like and don't like.
organist
Posts: 574
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:39 pm
Parish / Diocese: Westminster cathedral
Location: London
Contact:

Appropriate songs for primary schools

Post by organist »

Thank you Merseysider for making me laugh at the entendre :lol: This is a subject about which I feel really strongly. If we do not teach children songs we love, they will be gone for ever! I was once told by a teacher that "There is a green hill" was too much for children to stand! I pointed out that it was written for children and children can stand a lot more than we adults can plus the crucifixion is at the centre of our faith so why not sing about it!
I got a lack of flak some years ago when I wrote that Kumbayah and Colours of day wouldn't sustain you in your hour of need when you had to face death. On the other hand "The king of love" and "Be still my soul" and other hymns of faith are some help.
A really good song to teach everyone is Anne Quigley's "There is a longing". Walker's "We are the church" and other items from "Calling the children" and of course Bernadette Farrell's excellent songs.
"As I kneel before you" is basically a banal waltz. We should NEVER underestimate or dumb down to children. My experience is that they love reflective music and are not so keen on happy clappy type items once they reach 8 or 9. And isn't a worry that children are now rebelling against coming to church at a much younger age! I wonder why? Are we boring them?
Post Reply