Earlier this week Martin Baker, Director of Music at Westminster Cathedral spoke at the Vatican on the subject of music in the Liturgy in the light of the experience of the last forty years. On his return he was interviewed on Radio 3. You can hear the interview here.
The subject of participation is raised, as is that of concern over musical quality. Near the end, he questions the use of music from "composers of dubious quality." The interview finishes with a recording of the Penitential Rite from a MacMillan Mass for celebrant and choir.
I would be interested to hear views on the content of this interview.
CG Sec
Summoned to the Vatican
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
Summoned to the Vatican
Do it live at a Composers' Group meeting!
I don't think he gets it right. If you want to get sniffy about Catholic musical standards around the country (and I'm not sure whether I do), it would be appropriate to bemoan standards of performance more than the repertoire. Put it this way: my local parish has more chance of sounding like Westminster Cathedral by singing Estelle White beautifully, than by trying to sing Victoria (or Panufnik or whatever) with their current resources. The institutional problem we have is with the training and preparation of musical ministers, and the failure to invest seriously in that. In comparison there's no case whatever for investing more in commissions from illustrious composers.
Anyway, I'd say that among my experiences of the most effective and prayerful liturgical music are as many involving simple unsophisticated things (the music of Taizé or Iona or the Thomas More Group, or a huge crowd singing Hail Queen of Heaven) as those involving music suitable for Radio 3.
Besides, elevating the serious composer as the solution to the Church's musical woes makes no sense when proposed in the same breath as a (supposed, but that's another issue) restoration of the simplicity and artlessness of chant.
M.
Anyway, I'd say that among my experiences of the most effective and prayerful liturgical music are as many involving simple unsophisticated things (the music of Taizé or Iona or the Thomas More Group, or a huge crowd singing Hail Queen of Heaven) as those involving music suitable for Radio 3.
Besides, elevating the serious composer as the solution to the Church's musical woes makes no sense when proposed in the same breath as a (supposed, but that's another issue) restoration of the simplicity and artlessness of chant.
M.
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docmattc
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How does one define "Composers of dubious quality"? Surely "Compositions of dubious quality" is closer to the mark as some of the best liturgical composers have written some real turkeys!
Even this definition is one entirely of personal taste. Its a matter on knowing what will lead a given congregation deeper into prayer, and that will vary from church to church.
A few years ago I was in a church where the choir sang Mozart's Ave Verum during communion. At its conclusion the congregation applauded. Therefore I would argue that this work (not of dubious quality, by most standards) hadn't really enhanced the prayerfulness of the Mass, because the congregation reacted as an audience.
Even this definition is one entirely of personal taste. Its a matter on knowing what will lead a given congregation deeper into prayer, and that will vary from church to church.
A few years ago I was in a church where the choir sang Mozart's Ave Verum during communion. At its conclusion the congregation applauded. Therefore I would argue that this work (not of dubious quality, by most standards) hadn't really enhanced the prayerfulness of the Mass, because the congregation reacted as an audience.
I did listen to the programme, and twice wrote a response only to had my PC crash.
What I think I heard Martin Baker say was 'composers of dubious qualification...' which I know includes me.
But he probaly won't be trying to encourage a full church of once a year regulars at 6.30 Christmas Eve to sing at least the Lordes Gloria refrain, and an Alleluia.
I have never played for it before, I peeped in at the end last year: it was mayhem, and I would much rather have children go to Mass on Christmas morning. All the other choir and musicians have declined and we have a new PP, who by Sunday was slightly desperate.
I will have Midnight Mass to look forward to.
What I think I heard Martin Baker say was 'composers of dubious qualification...' which I know includes me.
But he probaly won't be trying to encourage a full church of once a year regulars at 6.30 Christmas Eve to sing at least the Lordes Gloria refrain, and an Alleluia.
I have never played for it before, I peeped in at the end last year: it was mayhem, and I would much rather have children go to Mass on Christmas morning. All the other choir and musicians have declined and we have a new PP, who by Sunday was slightly desperate.
I will have Midnight Mass to look forward to.
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docmattc
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VML wrote:What I think I heard Martin Baker say was 'composers of dubious qualification...' which I know includes me.
Does it though? Only if your composition is theologically and or liturgically incorrect and fails to engage the congregation.
VML wrote: and I would much rather have children go to Mass on Christmas morning.
See the Vigil Mass at Christmas thread
http://www.ssg.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=315
You are not alone!
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presbyter
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This is from the Zenit site - no direct link available so I post this interview here.
ZENIT - The World Seen From Rome
Code: ZE05122420
Date: 2005-12-24
Gregorian Chant: a Thing of the Future?
Interview With President of Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music
VATICAN CITY, DEC. 24, 2005 (ZENIT.org).- Gregorian chant has been unjustly abandoned and its place in the life of the Church should be recovered, says a Vatican aide.
Monsignor Valenti Miserachs Grau made this declaration at a recent encounter organized by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments at the Vatican.
Monsignor Miserachs has been president of the Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music since 1995. This Spanish musician, who has composed more than 2,000 pieces, is also the canonical chapel director of the Basilica of St. Mary Major in Rome.
ZENIT interviewed him about the state of Gregorian chant.
Q: On a day in the Vatican dedicated to chant you have asked that Gregorian chant be recovered and the proposal was well applauded. Does this mean that there is a consensus on its recovery?
Monsignor Miserachs: I believe that this means that there is a general opinion that coincides on the necessity of recovering Latin and Gregorian chant, which is the chant proper to the Church. Gregorian chant has been abandoned and left to concert halls and CD's when its proper place was and is the liturgy.
Q: In the 21st century, does it seem logical to you that Church music be not exclusively Gregorian chant?
Monsignor Miserachs: I think that new musical products, in the majority of cases, have not learned or have not been able to root themselves in the tradition of the Church, thus dragging in a general impoverishment.
It is incomprehensible, especially in the Latin countries, that Latin and Gregorian chant has been pushed aside in the last 40 years.
Latin and Gregorian chant form part of tradition -- and they have been amputated. It is like cutting the roots ?
Forgetting Gregorian has created the conditions for the proliferation of new musical products that sometimes don't have sufficient technical quality. Those that do have it can be used along with Gregorian, why not?
Q: Why is the capacity of the faithful to learn Latin melodies not appreciated?
Monsignor Miserachs: It was thought that they were incapable, but this was wrong.
Before, people knew how to sing the basic songs in Latin. Today, it seems that efforts are being made to make them unlearn what they knew. It is obvious that we cannot propose they learn the entire repertoire, which contains 5,000 pieces.
In liturgical chant the assembly does not have to be the only protagonist. A certain order must be kept. The people should sing their part and the rest should be done by the choir, the chanter, the psalmist and obviously the celebrant.
To launch Gregorian chant in the assembly again, we could begin remembering the Pater Noster, the Kyrie, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei.
If they were invited, given the music and then properly trained, the people would be completely capable of following and singing easy Gregorian melodies, even if it were the first time they heard them.
Just as the repertoire of Gregorian chant is learned, so also other songs in living languages can be learned. I obviously am referring to those that are worthy of being beside the Gregorian repertoire.
Q: Is sufficient attention given to the question of sacred music in the Church?
Monsignor Miserachs: No. For some time, we have insisted on this point. Our institute does its job, but it is only an academic institution, not a normative body and it thus has no say in these affairs. A Vatican body is needed that would directly oversee the matters of sacred music.
John Paul II stated that the musical aspect of liturgical celebrations cannot be left to improvisation or to the free will of the people. It should be confided to a concerted direction and the respect for certain norms. Authorized indications are awaited and this concerns the Church of Rome, the Holy See.
ZENIT - The World Seen From Rome
Code: ZE05122420
Date: 2005-12-24
Gregorian Chant: a Thing of the Future?
Interview With President of Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music
VATICAN CITY, DEC. 24, 2005 (ZENIT.org).- Gregorian chant has been unjustly abandoned and its place in the life of the Church should be recovered, says a Vatican aide.
Monsignor Valenti Miserachs Grau made this declaration at a recent encounter organized by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments at the Vatican.
Monsignor Miserachs has been president of the Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music since 1995. This Spanish musician, who has composed more than 2,000 pieces, is also the canonical chapel director of the Basilica of St. Mary Major in Rome.
ZENIT interviewed him about the state of Gregorian chant.
Q: On a day in the Vatican dedicated to chant you have asked that Gregorian chant be recovered and the proposal was well applauded. Does this mean that there is a consensus on its recovery?
Monsignor Miserachs: I believe that this means that there is a general opinion that coincides on the necessity of recovering Latin and Gregorian chant, which is the chant proper to the Church. Gregorian chant has been abandoned and left to concert halls and CD's when its proper place was and is the liturgy.
Q: In the 21st century, does it seem logical to you that Church music be not exclusively Gregorian chant?
Monsignor Miserachs: I think that new musical products, in the majority of cases, have not learned or have not been able to root themselves in the tradition of the Church, thus dragging in a general impoverishment.
It is incomprehensible, especially in the Latin countries, that Latin and Gregorian chant has been pushed aside in the last 40 years.
Latin and Gregorian chant form part of tradition -- and they have been amputated. It is like cutting the roots ?
Forgetting Gregorian has created the conditions for the proliferation of new musical products that sometimes don't have sufficient technical quality. Those that do have it can be used along with Gregorian, why not?
Q: Why is the capacity of the faithful to learn Latin melodies not appreciated?
Monsignor Miserachs: It was thought that they were incapable, but this was wrong.
Before, people knew how to sing the basic songs in Latin. Today, it seems that efforts are being made to make them unlearn what they knew. It is obvious that we cannot propose they learn the entire repertoire, which contains 5,000 pieces.
In liturgical chant the assembly does not have to be the only protagonist. A certain order must be kept. The people should sing their part and the rest should be done by the choir, the chanter, the psalmist and obviously the celebrant.
To launch Gregorian chant in the assembly again, we could begin remembering the Pater Noster, the Kyrie, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei.
If they were invited, given the music and then properly trained, the people would be completely capable of following and singing easy Gregorian melodies, even if it were the first time they heard them.
Just as the repertoire of Gregorian chant is learned, so also other songs in living languages can be learned. I obviously am referring to those that are worthy of being beside the Gregorian repertoire.
Q: Is sufficient attention given to the question of sacred music in the Church?
Monsignor Miserachs: No. For some time, we have insisted on this point. Our institute does its job, but it is only an academic institution, not a normative body and it thus has no say in these affairs. A Vatican body is needed that would directly oversee the matters of sacred music.
John Paul II stated that the musical aspect of liturgical celebrations cannot be left to improvisation or to the free will of the people. It should be confided to a concerted direction and the respect for certain norms. Authorized indications are awaited and this concerns the Church of Rome, the Holy See.
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organist
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Summoned to the Vatican
Martin Baker kindly sent me a copy of his address, which was well written and clear. He has also replied to my comments about the Macmillan Mass sung at the Saturday 6.30 p.m. Mass at Westminster cathedral which I attend and SSG members sang at. In his reply he was very dismissive of the work of Thomas More group composers saying they were unsuitable for the size of the cathedral! I am due to meet him soon so I will raise this with him. The Catholic Herald has printed my letter in full this week. Mgr Mark Langham writes amusingly about the Rome seminar in Oremus this month.
I actually think the Macmillan St Anne's Mass setting which Martin favours has some weaknesses - scotch snaps, big jumps, lies high in the voice, long phrases, putting in an "O" in the Benedictus to fit the tune - it's not good word setting. Worst of all we sing it EVERY week so it's boring. I also think he probably doesn't know some of the better settings really well as I do and I know they work well in the liturgy. Plainchant is lovely but it is NOT easy and it doesn't suit every congregation and without trained musicians to teach it, you can forget it! We must not forget we have 2 generations now who know little Latin- even "Pater noster" is unknown to them!
I actually think the Macmillan St Anne's Mass setting which Martin favours has some weaknesses - scotch snaps, big jumps, lies high in the voice, long phrases, putting in an "O" in the Benedictus to fit the tune - it's not good word setting. Worst of all we sing it EVERY week so it's boring. I also think he probably doesn't know some of the better settings really well as I do and I know they work well in the liturgy. Plainchant is lovely but it is NOT easy and it doesn't suit every congregation and without trained musicians to teach it, you can forget it! We must not forget we have 2 generations now who know little Latin- even "Pater noster" is unknown to them!
I agree with Organist's comments about St Anne's Mass by James MacMillan. I use it - it reappeared this morning - part of the reason I use it was to see how it works as a regular setting.
I always fear that it attracts a slight snobbery as it is by a 'rea'l composer. The weaknesses that Organist mentions I would suggest make it unsuitable for the 'size of the cathedral'! Where it works well is when it sung confidently by a congregation that is familiar with it (like most things!).
What I would love to see was Westminster Cathedral commissioning music that was suitable both for the cathedral and for a congregation to participate.
I always fear that it attracts a slight snobbery as it is by a 'rea'l composer. The weaknesses that Organist mentions I would suggest make it unsuitable for the 'size of the cathedral'! Where it works well is when it sung confidently by a congregation that is familiar with it (like most things!).
What I would love to see was Westminster Cathedral commissioning music that was suitable both for the cathedral and for a congregation to participate.
Bringing back Gregorian chant
Around 12 years ago, our PP encouraged us to learn Credo 3, but on the morning we were ready to sing it for the first time, we had a newly ordained visiting priest.
Knowing that this priest was the nephew of one of our prominent Church music composers and publishers, who had himself had music to an Our Father included in his uncle's hymn books, I asked if he could please intone the Credo. 'Sorry,' he said,'I don't know it. We didn't do Latin at seminary.'.... This reinforces Organist's warning: We are running out of people who know plainsong.
I know Westminster Cathedral choir is considered unique in its professional status, singing daily Mass and Vespers, and lots of amazing beautifully constructed music. It must be important if the Vatican is consulting its director.
It is embroidered silk and velvet and ornate tapestry, beautifully crafted, yes, by highly qualified professionals. But such glory does not wear well for every day, or in a less grand setting.
Most of us are better able to pray in our comfortable Sunday best.
Listening in wonder is valid as participation, as Martin Baker said. Listening is an essential part of any music, but there is a difference between listening and being inspired in worship, and listening and feeling that such clever music is for other people.
This is the difference between choir and musicians who are genuinely part of the community, and ‘professionals’ who produce a performance.
JPII is quoted as saying that the musical aspect of liturgical celebrations cannot be left to improvisation or to the free will of the people. But even ‘norms’ are subjective. And who has moderated the 2000 compositions of Mgr. Miserachs? Are they all to be considered OK because he is well qualified?
And who moderates our music?
Does fashion have anything to do with it?
Most users of this board I would think consider the versified English Masses of the 1970s past it, hackneyed and overused, but what do you do when the ‘other’ group uses one and the congregation thinks it’s wonderful to have ‘some of the old music again’?
I would love to hear and use more chant, and yes, Organist, re. your CH letter, it is a good idea to produce CDs and sheet music making its use possible.
We learnt the Salve Regina recently, and it was well received, but then it was in Latin, and ‘dulcis’ is OK. But in general, the hymns that include the word ‘sweet’ are out of favour.
This is just some of my reactions to this thread
Sorry it is fragmented.
Knowing that this priest was the nephew of one of our prominent Church music composers and publishers, who had himself had music to an Our Father included in his uncle's hymn books, I asked if he could please intone the Credo. 'Sorry,' he said,'I don't know it. We didn't do Latin at seminary.'.... This reinforces Organist's warning: We are running out of people who know plainsong.
I know Westminster Cathedral choir is considered unique in its professional status, singing daily Mass and Vespers, and lots of amazing beautifully constructed music. It must be important if the Vatican is consulting its director.
It is embroidered silk and velvet and ornate tapestry, beautifully crafted, yes, by highly qualified professionals. But such glory does not wear well for every day, or in a less grand setting.
Most of us are better able to pray in our comfortable Sunday best.
Listening in wonder is valid as participation, as Martin Baker said. Listening is an essential part of any music, but there is a difference between listening and being inspired in worship, and listening and feeling that such clever music is for other people.
This is the difference between choir and musicians who are genuinely part of the community, and ‘professionals’ who produce a performance.
JPII is quoted as saying that the musical aspect of liturgical celebrations cannot be left to improvisation or to the free will of the people. But even ‘norms’ are subjective. And who has moderated the 2000 compositions of Mgr. Miserachs? Are they all to be considered OK because he is well qualified?
And who moderates our music?
Does fashion have anything to do with it?
Most users of this board I would think consider the versified English Masses of the 1970s past it, hackneyed and overused, but what do you do when the ‘other’ group uses one and the congregation thinks it’s wonderful to have ‘some of the old music again’?
I would love to hear and use more chant, and yes, Organist, re. your CH letter, it is a good idea to produce CDs and sheet music making its use possible.
We learnt the Salve Regina recently, and it was well received, but then it was in Latin, and ‘dulcis’ is OK. But in general, the hymns that include the word ‘sweet’ are out of favour.
This is just some of my reactions to this thread
Sorry it is fragmented.
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organist
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Summoned to the Vatican
Thank you VML for your useful comments. I really enjoyed meeting with Martin Baker and he is keen to join the SSG and this forum. A dialogue with him is vital. If funding could be found, the cathedral could commission a congregational setting which would have a plainchant base or a "chant" feel. I was astonished to learn that the MacMillan setting has been used on most Saturdays for 5 years! The cantor and organist do their best to get the people to sing. Certainly the building itself makes one feel isolated even when in a big congregation and thus inhibits participation. Another point I made was the need to start with a well known hymn to get people singing.
The cathedral has a Calamus license and I asked that composers be acknowledged on leaflets as I am sure that people copy what they see others doing. "If the cathedral doesn't acknowledge copyright why should I?" could be a common response.
I have asked on another thread for good English chant based settings and in particular for settings of the Gloria. Somewhere I have a large file of Mass settings but I'm afraid many of them have had their day!
The cathedral has a Calamus license and I asked that composers be acknowledged on leaflets as I am sure that people copy what they see others doing. "If the cathedral doesn't acknowledge copyright why should I?" could be a common response.
I have asked on another thread for good English chant based settings and in particular for settings of the Gloria. Somewhere I have a large file of Mass settings but I'm afraid many of them have had their day!