The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

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keitha
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The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by keitha »

The Bishops of England & Wales have had prayers and a chant prepared for Masses on 5th June (Pentecost) for Her Majesty's Platinum Jubilee, all available in pdf and tiff:

http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Calenda ... n-70.shtml
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Nick Baty
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Re: The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by Nick Baty »

Wonder why they've only published the chant in Latin!
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keitha
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Re: The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by keitha »

God's own language Nick! :D
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Re: The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by High Peak »

It would also help if it were published in modern notation as well as Gregorian.
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Re: The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by Southern Comfort »

Nick Baty wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:45 pm Wonder why they've only published the chant in Latin!
Because it doesn't exist in any other form. This is the chant, minus Solesmes rhythmic signs, that was sung at the end of every High Mass up to 1964, when Mass was still predominantly in Latin. It was never sung in the vernacular.

It started life in France in the chapel of Versailles during the reign of Louis XIV. The opening was Domine salvum fac regem nostrum Ludovicum.

In 1759, after the defeat of French forces by the British in Québec, Québecois Catholics began to substitute the name of George III of England for that of Louis XV who by that time had succeeded Louis XIV, and the practice then spread to England. It became part of the way that English Catholics showed their loyalty to the Crown, and aided their integration into British society in the late 19th and first half of the 20th century.

I can remember the change In 1952, when George VI was succeeded by Elizabeth II, from Domine salvum fac regem nostrum Georgium to Domine salvam fac reginam nostram Elizabeth — it took some time to bed in!
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Re: The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by alan29 »

Nick Baty wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:45 pm Wonder why they've only published the chant in Latin!
.... and why the queen's name is kept in English.
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Re: The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by Southern Comfort »

St Elizabeth in Latin is Santa Elisabetha (notice the 's' instead of the 'z'), which declines as usual. Alternative forms of the name such as Isabella (= Isabelle) can also be used. But there is no real Latin equivalent of Elizabeth when used as a Christian name, so it should remain undeclined.

When the Vivats in Parry's I was glad were altered from the original, the translators had a problem, not only of fitting in additional syllables but how to render the new Queen's name in Cambridge Latin. They solved it, in their ignorance, by inventing a neologism, Elizabetha, thinking that the simple addition of an 'a' to the end would be sufficient to turn it into a feminine Latin noun. They were wrong, alas. It's the same sort of thinking that was lampooned in Monty Python's The Life of Brian, where a Roman officer is famously named Biggus *beep*.
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Re: The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by Nick Baty »

Southern Comfort wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 1:41 pma Roman officer is famously named Biggus *beep*.
:lol:
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Re: The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by alan29 »

Southern Comfort wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 1:41 pm St Elizabeth in Latin is Santa Elisabetha (notice the 's' instead of the 'z'), which declines as usual. Alternative forms of the name such as Isabella (= Isabelle) can also be used. But there is no real Latin equivalent of Elizabeth when used as a Christian name, so it should remain undeclined.

When the Vivats in Parry's I was glad were altered from the original, the translators had a problem, not only of fitting in additional syllables but how to render the new Queen's name in Cambridge Latin. They solved it, in their ignorance, by inventing a neologism, Elizabetha, thinking that the simple addition of an 'a' to the end would be sufficient to turn it into a feminine Latin noun. They were wrong, alas. It's the same sort of thinking that was lampooned in Monty Python's The Life of Brian, where a Roman officer is famously named Biggus *beep*.
Not sure I understand the bit in bold. Elizabeth (s/z is down to transliteration and not really significant) is a biblical name and as much a Christian name as John or Paul.
NB When the Litany was sung in Liverpool Derek (Warlock) was rendered as Theodoric! Stretching a point, I think.
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Re: The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by Southern Comfort »

alan29 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:10 pm
Southern Comfort wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 1:41 pm St Elizabeth in Latin is Santa Elisabetha (notice the 's' instead of the 'z'), which declines as usual. Alternative forms of the name such as Isabella (= Isabelle) can also be used. But there is no real Latin equivalent of Elizabeth when used as a Christian name, so it should remain undeclined.

When the Vivats in Parry's I was glad were altered from the original, the translators had a problem, not only of fitting in additional syllables but how to render the new Queen's name in Cambridge Latin. They solved it, in their ignorance, by inventing a neologism, Elizabetha, thinking that the simple addition of an 'a' to the end would be sufficient to turn it into a feminine Latin noun. They were wrong, alas. It's the same sort of thinking that was lampooned in Monty Python's The Life of Brian, where a Roman officer is famously named Biggus *beep*.
Not sure I understand the bit in bold. Elizabeth (s/z is down to transliteration and not really significant) is a biblical name and as much a Christian name as John or Paul.
NB When the Litany was sung in Liverpool Derek (Warlock) was rendered as Theodoric! Stretching a point, I think.
My apologies for the typo: it should have been Sancta Elisabetha.

My point is that Elisabetha is a valid Latin usage, Elizabetha is not. Additionally 's' and 'z' are pronounced in two rather different ways in Latin. No one wants to pronounce the Queen's name as Ay-lee-tsah-bay-tah; anyone wanting to use Elizabeth in a Latin sentence has to keep it in English, and so undeclined.

The Latin for Derek is Theodoricus (and yes, it amused me too at the time). In German it would be Dietrich, derived from old Low German Diederik which makes the Latin form a little more understandable.

Finally, I'm amused that the profanity-checker beeped out the second name of the Roman soldier I referenced.
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Re: The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by alan29 »

Southern Comfort wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 8:08 am
alan29 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:10 pm
Southern Comfort wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 1:41 pm St Elizabeth in Latin is Santa Elisabetha (notice the 's' instead of the 'z'), which declines as usual. Alternative forms of the name such as Isabella (= Isabelle) can also be used. But there is no real Latin equivalent of Elizabeth when used as a Christian name, so it should remain undeclined.

When the Vivats in Parry's I was glad were altered from the original, the translators had a problem, not only of fitting in additional syllables but how to render the new Queen's name in Cambridge Latin. They solved it, in their ignorance, by inventing a neologism, Elizabetha, thinking that the simple addition of an 'a' to the end would be sufficient to turn it into a feminine Latin noun. They were wrong, alas. It's the same sort of thinking that was lampooned in Monty Python's The Life of Brian, where a Roman officer is famously named Biggus *beep*.
Not sure I understand the bit in bold. Elizabeth (s/z is down to transliteration and not really significant) is a biblical name and as much a Christian name as John or Paul.
NB When the Litany was sung in Liverpool Derek (Warlock) was rendered as Theodoric! Stretching a point, I think.
My apologies for the typo: it should have been Sancta Elisabetha.

My point is that Elisabetha is a valid Latin usage, Elizabetha is not. Additionally 's' and 'z' are pronounced in two rather different ways in Latin. No one wants to pronounce the Queen's name as Ay-lee-tsah-bay-tah; anyone wanting to use Elizabeth in a Latin sentence has to keep it in English, and so undeclined.

The Latin for Derek is Theodoricus (and yes, it amused me too at the time). In German it would be Dietrich, derived from old Low German Diederik which makes the Latin form a little more understandable.

Finally, I'm amused that the profanity-checker beeped out the second name of the Roman soldier I referenced.
Thanks for that.
Hooray for the vernacular (or the rough approximation that 2011 foisted upon us.)
quaeritor
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Re: The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by quaeritor »

Love your precision as always, SC, but does one say that a noun "declines" or "is declined"?

Just askin'

Q
alan29
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Re: The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by alan29 »

quaeritor wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:38 am Love your precision as always, SC, but does one say that a noun "declines" or "is declined"?

Just askin'

Q
Reminds me of the quip about the classics lecturer and a student .......
but this isn't the right place, and I dont want to be sent into exile.
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Re: The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by High Peak »

Nick Baty wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 2:57 pm
Southern Comfort wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 1:41 pma Roman officer is famously named Biggus *beep*.
:lol:
You shouldn't laugh - he ranks as high as any in Rome.
Southern Comfort
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Re: The Queen's Platinum Jubilee

Post by Southern Comfort »

quaeritor wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:38 am Love your precision as always, SC, but does one say that a noun "declines" or "is declined"?

Just askin'

Q
I think both are correct. The lengthy Wikipedia entry on declensions even includes this sentence: "Whereas nouns do not distinguish between the subjective (nominative) and objective (oblique) cases, some pronouns do; that is, they decline to reflect their relationship to a verb or preposition, or case."
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