Hymnbooks
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
Hymnbooks
As a new member, I am not sure if this kind of notice is appropriate - if not, my apologies. I am currently working on the publication of a new Catholic hymnbook in conjunction with Farnborough Abbey. If this is something of interest to members, I should be grateful if they would email me with any thoughts and ideas as to what they would like to see in a new resource for Catholic worship. Many thanks.
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Gwyn
- Posts: 1147
- Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:42 pm
- Parish / Diocese: Archdiocese of Cardiff
- Location: Abertillery, South Wales UK
Hi Nick,
I have two pet hates when it comes to hymn books:
1: When the hymns are arranged in alphabetical order (as is Celebration Hymnal for Everyone),
2: When two separate but similar hymns share the same hymn number ( as at number 339 in Celebration Hymnal for Everyone).
The former because liturgically it is about as much use as a handbrake on a canoe, the latter because it's difficult to signify on a hymn number board which one is to be sung.
Other pet hates include: No (or very limited) selection of hymns for saints days, not to mention the gutting of traditional hymns in case the wording should be somehow misinterpreted by the "dull and ignorant". Eg. Laudate number 940).
The substituting with a tepid, diluted version of a popular hymn (see Laudate hymn 840) for who knows what reason when the original was and remains perfectly adequate.
I suspect that this thread will run and run. For an example of excellence in hymn book format you need look no further that The English Hymnal (which contains saints day hymns that put to shame catholic church hymnals).
Is it possible that you'll consider not including the awful Israeli Mass and its kind as well as much of the crud that hit the pews in the 70's and 80's?
Be assured of my prayers for the success of your undertaking.
P.S. And not forgetting the indexes. For some reason (beyond my understanding) every single copy of even the punter-in-the-pew words only edition of most hymnals has a full set of indexes. This is completely unnecessary and only serves to keep the costs up (and ensures that rain-forests come down).
Is there a enoticon for tongue-in-cheek
I have two pet hates when it comes to hymn books:
1: When the hymns are arranged in alphabetical order (as is Celebration Hymnal for Everyone),
2: When two separate but similar hymns share the same hymn number ( as at number 339 in Celebration Hymnal for Everyone).
The former because liturgically it is about as much use as a handbrake on a canoe, the latter because it's difficult to signify on a hymn number board which one is to be sung.
Other pet hates include: No (or very limited) selection of hymns for saints days, not to mention the gutting of traditional hymns in case the wording should be somehow misinterpreted by the "dull and ignorant". Eg. Laudate number 940).
The substituting with a tepid, diluted version of a popular hymn (see Laudate hymn 840) for who knows what reason when the original was and remains perfectly adequate.
I suspect that this thread will run and run. For an example of excellence in hymn book format you need look no further that The English Hymnal (which contains saints day hymns that put to shame catholic church hymnals).
Is it possible that you'll consider not including the awful Israeli Mass and its kind as well as much of the crud that hit the pews in the 70's and 80's?
Be assured of my prayers for the success of your undertaking.
P.S. And not forgetting the indexes. For some reason (beyond my understanding) every single copy of even the punter-in-the-pew words only edition of most hymnals has a full set of indexes. This is completely unnecessary and only serves to keep the costs up (and ensures that rain-forests come down).
Is there a enoticon for tongue-in-cheek
Hymnbooks
Many thanks for this prompt feedback! This is exactly what I am interested in hearing. In answer to the pet hates, the hymnbook will be organized liturgically and not alphabetically, and there will be no hymns sharing the same numbers! The Israeli Mass will NOT be included! There will be a specially-written English mass for each of Britain's patrons and several Gregorian masses. The book will also contain the order of mass in English and Latin, together with morning and evening prayer, compline, benediction and baptism/confirmation/confession. There will also be a funeral rite included. A psalter will be provided, with pointing, and the liturgy planner will be on CDRom and will come with the full music edition – to save paper!! With regard to hymns, I agree - EH and NEH are good examples, particularly in the inclusion of office hymns. There will be a large selection of hymns to the saints - this is indeed a glaring omission in CFE and Laudate etc - and there will be no watering/dumbing down of language I can assure you!! I hope this answers your questions!! Work is well under way and I will keep you posted. Thanks very much for your feedback. Nick
OK, lets start with practicalities:
Binding - I like them to be bound such that they will lie flat when open. Laudate fails this test.
Covers - I like stiff enough covers that you don't get dog eared corners. CFE's plaggy covers are good in this respect, old fashioned stiff board is good, Laudate's thin cardboard isn't.
Typography - No page breaks in the middle of verses, and no verses orphanned to separate pages. And proper dropped capitals or none at all, not the awful "letter in a box" approach which most DTP software now produces
Will the book be just a congregational one, or will there be one to play from as well? The best catholic hymnal I have to play form is the revised (1972) edition of Praise the Lord: almost everything about it is right.
Finally, many thanks for inviting our comments on this project. While this sort of project needs a very small team at the core, taking suggestions from a wide range of sources (and watching the arguments develop) will throw up ideas which you can accept or reject.
Binding - I like them to be bound such that they will lie flat when open. Laudate fails this test.
Covers - I like stiff enough covers that you don't get dog eared corners. CFE's plaggy covers are good in this respect, old fashioned stiff board is good, Laudate's thin cardboard isn't.
Typography - No page breaks in the middle of verses, and no verses orphanned to separate pages. And proper dropped capitals or none at all, not the awful "letter in a box" approach which most DTP software now produces
Will the book be just a congregational one, or will there be one to play from as well? The best catholic hymnal I have to play form is the revised (1972) edition of Praise the Lord: almost everything about it is right.
Finally, many thanks for inviting our comments on this project. While this sort of project needs a very small team at the core, taking suggestions from a wide range of sources (and watching the arguments develop) will throw up ideas which you can accept or reject.
Thanks again for the feedback. Yes, binding and covers!! 2 versions only, one melody edition and one full music – both in hardback. Good quality covers and thick paper for durability. I hope that fits the bill! Thanks for the comments about type-setting. I shall pass them on to our DTP people. All suggestions very gratefully received! Nick
There are good reasons for an alphabetical arrangement: I don't know how many people can remember the numbers of hymns, and it is easy to look up a title alphabetically and go straight to the hymn, rather than having to refer to the index first.
There is also a danger in arranging hymns by a liturgical manner: rather than using our braincell, we rely on the relevant section, whereas many times a specific hymn can fit more than one season. It may be that we want to use a hymn with reference to the passion on Christ the King Yr C, for example, but don't automaticly refer to "passiontide" or whatever the book calls it.
Arguments for and against both and not something to get too hung up about.
Can you tell us Nick what you see the market for the book being?
Are you aiming at "traditional" (ie organ) choirs or at "ensemble" (ie guitars and instruments) music groups, or both?
Are you providing only chant settings of the psalms?
What matters most is : What is in the collection?
One request: please can you get it properly proofed - both musically and textually? cf Laudate which must've been originally proof-read by someone working for The Grauniad...
There is also a danger in arranging hymns by a liturgical manner: rather than using our braincell, we rely on the relevant section, whereas many times a specific hymn can fit more than one season. It may be that we want to use a hymn with reference to the passion on Christ the King Yr C, for example, but don't automaticly refer to "passiontide" or whatever the book calls it.
Arguments for and against both and not something to get too hung up about.
Can you tell us Nick what you see the market for the book being?
Are you aiming at "traditional" (ie organ) choirs or at "ensemble" (ie guitars and instruments) music groups, or both?
Are you providing only chant settings of the psalms?
What matters most is : What is in the collection?
One request: please can you get it properly proofed - both musically and textually? cf Laudate which must've been originally proof-read by someone working for The Grauniad...
Last edited by Benevenio on Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Benevenio.
If I published a hymn book it would have...
Layout is my hangup - this business of cramming songs in every available space. Remember those lovely old puritanical hymnbooks we had on the Mayflower? One page, one song, maybe a melody line to give you a clue as to how the tune "Cludgebrooke" goes as it wheezes out of the leaking 1520 Pedal-o-phonorgan. *sigh* Happy days.....
I think it gives better presence to each song, especially lyrically. The same for the mass parts - avoid clutter.
Anything to avoid page turns in mid-song, players and congregation copies alike.
I think it gives better presence to each song, especially lyrically. The same for the mass parts - avoid clutter.
Anything to avoid page turns in mid-song, players and congregation copies alike.
Whilst I agree to an extent with Benevenio's comments, I think that most people can remember the numbers of frequently used hymns. Sad person that I am, I manage to remember various hymn numbers from various different books - so much so that I bus route numbers in London are referred to as Soul of my Saviour Hymns Old and New etc etc! With regard to your comments about the differences in the 3 year lectionary, this will be covered in the CDRom liturgy planner which goes with the full-music edition. The hymnbook will attempt to bridge the gap between The Catholic Hymnbook (Paddy Russill's recent book) and the HoN, CFE and Laudate style books which contain a huge quantity of rarely used and, frankly, poor quality music and words. It is aimed at organist/cantor/choral led liturgy, not ensembles. The (provisional) list of contents is too lengthy to put here alas. As to proof reading, there are a panel of 4 (Myself, the Prior of Farnborough Abbey, the Head of Liturgical Formation and Music at Wonersh Seminary, and a qualified musician/Priest from the Southwark Archdiocese. The chant will be proofread at Solesmes and the music typeset at the Conservatory in Den Haag. I hope this answers your questions and thanks for the comments. All feedback is greatly appreciated. Nick
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contrabordun
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 4:20 pm
Bit hard to phrase this as a 'please don't do this', so I'll just describe the problem...There is one piece in OCP's missalette where you turn over (mid verse) for the last line of each of the first three verses, (and back again of course). The third time has a different last bar, which leads into the fourth verse, which also has a page turn in it, then you turn back to the first page for the fifth verse, and I think even that has a different coda to it.
Heartstopping moments of 'which bit do I play next?' followed by instant resort to photcopier, scissors and paste.
Please plan repeats and page turns with the averagely able in mind, and if in doubt, print it to be played straight through with no repeats.
Heartstopping moments of 'which bit do I play next?' followed by instant resort to photcopier, scissors and paste.
Please plan repeats and page turns with the averagely able in mind, and if in doubt, print it to be played straight through with no repeats.
Welcome
A warm but belated welcome to the forum, Nick. That's a great first post, and we look forward to many more.
My 2 cents on the hymn book: please ensure that the alphabetical index is the last thing in the book, and not as HON does it (at least, in some editions).
Musicus - moderator
My 2 cents on the hymn book: please ensure that the alphabetical index is the last thing in the book, and not as HON does it (at least, in some editions).
Musicus - moderator
A few of thoughts about the FME ... somewhat rambling I'm afraid.
Things I like about the Full Music Edition of Praise the Lord (the blue 1972 version), which make it the King of FMEs
The FME of Laudate is set out quite nicely, and I use it a lot - but the interminable typographical errors are really offputting. I like the way they list who the copyright holder is with each hymn rather than in a separate index. And if you can put down the dates of both the author and composer it makes it easier to know when a hymn has come out of copyright (I hope your hymnal is long lived enough that it is still in use when Vaughan Williams comes out of copyright, for example).
Please don't skimp on the proofreading/playing. In particular, make sure that tunes are proofplayed by organists who are not particularly accomplished, and also that they are proofplayed at half speed to force you to read the notes rather than play directly from what you hear in your head onto the manuals/pedals
The nadir, typographically, has to be the FME of CFE - with its tiny little spidery notes. I never use it.
If your FME goes to two volumes as with Laudate and CFE, what would be really cool would be if, at the back of each volume, you printed duplicates of the bits in the other volume with difficult page turns. At present I have to play "Praise My Soul" partly from Laudate and partly from Praise the Lord.
My late grandfather used to, whenever a new FME hymnal was published, buy two copies so that he could cut out and paste all the hymns onto card. If you are issuing a CD with your FME, it would be great if there were a machine readable copy of the FME with permission to print a single copy onto card as a convenience.
Things I like about the Full Music Edition of Praise the Lord (the blue 1972 version), which make it the King of FMEs
- . The musical typography is clear and beautiful.
. The arrangements are mostly top notch - Peter Faber, Paul Inwood, David Kingsley et al have added variety to many tunes. In particular, where traditionally tunes have repeated lines they clearly show where they've altered the harmony.
. They show breath marks between lines
. The index of first lines lists the tune as well as the number (this is surpassed only by my wife's copy of the Methodist Hymnal, where it also lists the meter)
. The selection of indexes is excellent: First lines, tunes, metrical, authors, composers, by psalm
. A number of hymns (especially carols) have alternative harmonisations and final verse arrangements
The FME of Laudate is set out quite nicely, and I use it a lot - but the interminable typographical errors are really offputting. I like the way they list who the copyright holder is with each hymn rather than in a separate index. And if you can put down the dates of both the author and composer it makes it easier to know when a hymn has come out of copyright (I hope your hymnal is long lived enough that it is still in use when Vaughan Williams comes out of copyright, for example).
Please don't skimp on the proofreading/playing. In particular, make sure that tunes are proofplayed by organists who are not particularly accomplished, and also that they are proofplayed at half speed to force you to read the notes rather than play directly from what you hear in your head onto the manuals/pedals
The nadir, typographically, has to be the FME of CFE - with its tiny little spidery notes. I never use it.
If your FME goes to two volumes as with Laudate and CFE, what would be really cool would be if, at the back of each volume, you printed duplicates of the bits in the other volume with difficult page turns. At present I have to play "Praise My Soul" partly from Laudate and partly from Praise the Lord.
My late grandfather used to, whenever a new FME hymnal was published, buy two copies so that he could cut out and paste all the hymns onto card. If you are issuing a CD with your FME, it would be great if there were a machine readable copy of the FME with permission to print a single copy onto card as a convenience.
nickgale wrote:It is aimed at organist/cantor/choral led liturgy, not ensembles.
Given that a recent poll in Westminster, for the At your word, Lord programme, found that about 60:40 of the main parish masses were being celebrated with music led by a guitar, it seems a shame to limit your market! Are you going to add guitar chords to the pieces?
Benevenio.
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Gwyn
- Posts: 1147
- Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:42 pm
- Parish / Diocese: Archdiocese of Cardiff
- Location: Abertillery, South Wales UK
Benevenio said:
. . . but CHFE & Laudate and a few others already cater more than adequately for the guitar-led liturgy. Why not do one thing and do it well, ie publish choral-based hymnal? I suspect that it's in trying to create a catch-all that has led to Laudate & CHFE being works of compromise all but throughout.
There is a serious need for a dedicated choral-based hymnal. It may be that the absence of such a publication has contributed in no small way to 60% of parish masses being guitar and bongo-led.
Abso-bally-lutleigh!
it seems a shame to limit your market! Are you going to add guitar chords to the pieces?
. . . but CHFE & Laudate and a few others already cater more than adequately for the guitar-led liturgy. Why not do one thing and do it well, ie publish choral-based hymnal? I suspect that it's in trying to create a catch-all that has led to Laudate & CHFE being works of compromise all but throughout.
There is a serious need for a dedicated choral-based hymnal. It may be that the absence of such a publication has contributed in no small way to 60% of parish masses being guitar and bongo-led.
One request: please can you get it properly proofed - both musically and textually? cf Laudate which must've been originally proof-read by someone working for The Grauniad...
Abso-bally-lutleigh!