International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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VML
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by VML » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:45 pm

Thank you for your reply Gwyn.
(I did read Hare's anguished post a while ago. I thought of many big bloopers I have made, not for want of practice, but they just happen.)

This is a whole other question, and reading the subject of this thread I take from it that it is disrespectful not to put a reasonable amount of time and effort into music for the Mass. Though when I spoke in this vein to a friend and choir member yesterday, saying that you would not be able to stay in the (secular) choral society or male voice choir if you declined to turn up and practice, she said that is not what we are about: Singing is their main purpose, focus on Christ in the Mass is ours. An interesting point of view and one that has been used to explain why Catholic churches don't sing as well as C of E.

I would like to get some practices together for HW&E. But we will simply produce some lists, more or less the same as last year, and no-one will want to turn up any time before. The members who used to practise regularly 20+ years ago are feeling too old to go out in the evening, and the new members are all 'too busy'. It could be better, I know it.

JW
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by JW » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:09 pm

Given that logic, it would be fine if priests didn't prepare their homilies and just mumbled their way through liturgies. No point either in readers preparing and reading well.

There's no excuse for a poor Sunday experience. It's a lack of respect for our fellow worshippers and God if we don't all do the best we can.

And the Pope's recent comments plus comments about homilies in Evangelii Gaudium are apposite here.
JW

oopsorganist
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by oopsorganist » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:54 pm

Been there done that VML. Those music practices in an unheated room in winter dark and just........ me.

Is it the lack of respect the church has for musicians or the desperation of parish priests to find any music at all, that allows such torture to be acceptable. It is the curse of voluntary activities I suppose. You only value what you pay for. Maybe.
uh oh!

alan29
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by alan29 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:06 pm

...... and of course one should do the congregation the courtesy of teaching them new things too.

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VML
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by VML » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:22 pm

And that is a whole new issue. When I was the main MD I used to sing through new bits with the congregation before Mass, demonstrated with the choir. Then PP decided we should have a prayer followed by 5 minutes of silence before Mass, - a reasonable idea. It never is silence, but it has put paid to any run through. And I now only lead alternate weeks, so there is not the same continuity.

Southern Comfort
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by Southern Comfort » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:39 pm

The 200 signatories (and here were a few more who did not get included on the list) will be found here:

http://www.altaredei.com/?page_id=20

The guiding spirit is Aurelio Porfiri, formerly a musician in Rome, now operating in Macau, China.

alan29
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by alan29 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:09 am

Thats an illustrious list.
Not many parish musicians on it. And we are the ones doing the heavy lifting week after week.
Not many women either.

oopsorganist
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by oopsorganist » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:03 pm

Yes
At first I thought there were no women but then I spotted some .... don't know the percentage though.
So I was thinking then, how would it be if the plan was for the numbers to be even, equal, balanced.
Would they have to leave out some of those illustrious men.
Or would they have to enlist a lot more women.
That's what I've been thinking about this morning.
uh oh!

Southern Comfort
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by Southern Comfort » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:01 pm

alan29 wrote:Thats an illustrious list.


It's a noticeably conservative list.

alan29
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by alan29 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:19 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:
alan29 wrote:Thats an illustrious list.


It's a noticeably conservative list.

Oh yes. And somewhat light on parish musicians ....... trying to avoid accusing them of pontificating from ivory towers.
Maybe thats how come they have the time to scour documents to find snippets they agree with.

oopsorganist
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by oopsorganist » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:08 pm

Just read the declaration.
Ho hum.
uh oh!

oopsorganist
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by oopsorganist » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:19 pm

And so what is the deal then , publishing such a statement just as the Pope makes his thingie too. What's the politics of this?

It is all a bit confrontational and all that. So there are a lot of people with pow, who prefer Gregorian chant and plenty of Latin. So lots of parishes do jingly and banal music with little musical skill. Yes too true.

But there is a marvellous treasury of contemporary vernacular music out there, being used well and with prayerful effect. And not needing to start a war about these things.

I would these people would put their pow into the real world and promote just good quality music in accordance with Vatican 2.
uh oh!

Southern Comfort
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by Southern Comfort » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:07 pm

oopsorganist wrote:I would these people would put their pow into the real world and promote just good quality music in accordance with Vatican 2.


Their basic problem is that they confuse idiom with quality.

There is good and bad folk music, wonderful and horrible contemporary music, just as there are acres of seriously boring Gregorian chant as well as marvellous pieces, and libraries full of mediocre and uninteresting 16th century polyphony alongside the incredible masterworks we all know.

The key is discernment. These folks often have blinkers on, alas.

None of this was seriously discussed at the recent Rome conference on sacred music, and these people were for the most part not present nor invited. What Pope Francis's address asked for was high standards in whatever idiom you are using, and good formation for all. That's another key.

alan29
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by alan29 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:23 pm

Spot on.

MaryR
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Re: International Declaration on Sacred Music "Cantate Domino"

Post by MaryR » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:35 pm

Some snippets from Musicam Sacram:

16. One cannot find anything more religious and more joyful in sacred celebrations than a whole congregation expressing its faith and devotion in song.

4 (b) The following come under the title of sacred music here: Gregorian chant, sacred polyphony in its various forms both ancient and modern, sacred music for the organ and other approved instruments, and sacred popular music, be it liturgical or simply religious.

24. Besides musical formation, suitable liturgical and spiritual formation must also be given to the members of the choir, in such a way that the proper performance of their liturgical role will not only enhance the beauty of the celebration and be an excellent example for the faithful, but will bring spiritual benefit to the choir-members themselves.


There's lots more like this. The document seems to approve of music in all forms provided it's well executed. And you just can't argue with the statement at paragraph 16.
Mary

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