Cardinal Sarah

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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helen rees
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Cardinal Sarah

Post by helen rees » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:15 pm

Cardinal Sarah asks priests to start celebrating Mass facing east this Advent!!! Is this really going to happen. Why ? :(

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/20 ... ign=buffer

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mcb
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Re: Cardinal Sarah

Post by mcb » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:37 pm

I think he's asking in a personal capacity, rather than giving orders; I don't believe he has the authority to do the latter. The Catholic Herald is spinning it by using the verb ask, as if it was a courteous instruction from on high, but not so long ago he was urging, which, in spite of the seemingly stronger sense of the verb, puts it into proper perspective as a personal campaign.

I'd predict that Reform-of-the-Reform aficionados will comply; most will already have done so, others will be emboldened to do so. But I imagine the vast majority of priests will give the request the due consideration it merits, and then act according to their own understanding and inclination. :wink:
Last edited by mcb on Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

alan29
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Re: Cardinal Sarah

Post by alan29 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:45 pm

Lost for words.
Someone give that man a job in a favella somewhere to gain a sense of proportion.

MARYFA
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Re: Cardinal Sarah

Post by MARYFA » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:46 pm

Is this supposed to be a reasoned contribution to discussion? What have South American slums to do with anything,
especially in connection with a Cardinal from Africa?

N. B. favela not favella.

alan29
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Re: Cardinal Sarah

Post by alan29 » Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:05 pm

MARYFA wrote:Is this supposed to be a reasoned contribution to discussion? What have South American slums to do with anything,
especially in connection with a Cardinal from Africa?

N. B. favela not favella.

Merely suggesting a prolonged period of pastoral work away from the rarified gilded palaces the cardinal frequents might just add beadth to his understanding of eucharistic celebration. You know, "smell of the sheep" as his boss put it.
Thank you for the correction. I will write it out 100 times for homework.

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Casimir
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Re: Cardinal Sarah

Post by Casimir » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:25 pm

Moderator's note: I've deleted a very lengthy (>3500 words) post which mainly consisted of a verbatim reproduction in two languages of Cardinal Sarah's recent remarks. Please link to long sources rather than reproducing them here. I've invited the contributor to resubmit his/her post in more digestible form. Let's keep the discussion both amicable and on topic please. Thanks!

alan29
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Re: Cardinal Sarah

Post by alan29 » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:03 pm

The thing is, the reasons pro and ante have been rehearsed over and again. Neither has a trump card. In the end people go one way or another as a personal preference and then root around to find justifications.

JW
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Re: Cardinal Sarah

Post by JW » Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:26 pm

What the Cardinal doesn't understand is that he lives in a bastion. People vote with their feet nowadays. Obedience to clerics is disappearing fast, the attempt to abolish the Hail Mary during Bidding Prayers and the attempt to reinstate Friday abstinence being recent examples. When will the penny drop that power is shifting?
JW

IncenseTom
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Re: Cardinal Sarah

Post by IncenseTom » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:20 pm

My understanding of this is that Cardinal Sarah is saying the normal way of celebrating Mass has always been (and continues to be) ad orientem and that Mass versus populum is a permissible option.

It isn't necessary to encourage/ ask/ recommend, etc priests to celebrate ad orientem because that's "the norm" (although clearly not in practise)

I see it as a reminder of what is "the norm" and what is "a legitimate alternative".

I hope some clergy are brave enough to give it a go without parishioners kicking up a stink.

alan29
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Re: Cardinal Sarah

Post by alan29 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:33 am

IncenseTom wrote:My understanding of this is that Cardinal Sarah is saying the normal way of celebrating Mass has always been (and continues to be) ad orientem and that Mass versus populum is a permissible option.

It isn't necessary to encourage/ ask/ recommend, etc priests to celebrate ad orientem because that's "the norm" (although clearly not in practise)

I see it as a reminder of what is "the norm" and what is "a legitimate alternative".

I hope some clergy are brave enough to give it a go without parishioners kicking up a stink.


Just to quote the General Introduction to the Roman Missal
"The altar should be built separate from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass may be celebrated facing the people, which is desirable whenever possible."
This the "norm" for the current Roman Missal. Maybe the cardinal should make himself more familiar with GIRM.
Those who celebrate using other books have their own norms. It is not for me to comment on their practices.

High Peak
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Re: Cardinal Sarah

Post by High Peak » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:41 am

alan29 wrote:Just to quote the General Introduction to the Roman Missal
"The altar should be built separate from the wall........."

I am informed by a priest friend that there is some debate as to the accuracy of the translation of that line. Can anyone cast any light?

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contrabordun
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Re: Cardinal Sarah

Post by contrabordun » Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:21 am

299. Altare maius exstruatur a pariete seiunctum, ut facile circumiri et in eo celebratio versus populum peragi possit, quod expedit ubicumque possibile sit. Altare eum autem occupet locum, ut revera centrum sit ad quod totius congregationis fidelium attentio sponte convertatur.114 De more sit fixum et dedicatum.


299. The altar should be built separate from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people, which is desirable wherever possible. Moreover, the altar should occupy a place where it is truly the centre toward which the attention of the whole congregation of the faithful naturally turns.116 The altar should usually be fixed and dedicated


Which part is in doubt? Looks plausible to my (somewhat rusty) Latin. The bit about easily being able walk around it is ok and I'm pretty sure about the bit I've emboldened.
Paul Hodgetts

alan29
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Re: Cardinal Sarah

Post by alan29 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:28 am

High Peak wrote:
alan29 wrote:Just to quote the General Introduction to the Roman Missal
"The altar should be built separate from the wall........."

I am informed by a priest friend that there is some debate as to the accuracy of the translation of that line. Can anyone cast any light?


Well if it isn't built separate from the wall it makes it pretty difficult to walk around and celebrate facing the people. And that seems to be the main point of the paragraph.
Its also worth pointing out that the translation I quoted is approved by the Vatican which sort of makes it official for the current Roman Missal.
But as I said, people who use other Missals will have their own norms.

High Peak
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Re: Cardinal Sarah

Post by High Peak » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:14 am


alan29
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Re: Cardinal Sarah

Post by alan29 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:34 am

As in Whitehall, so in the Vatican - people put in charge of ministries often have no particular expertise in the area they manage.

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