Another type of mass

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Holy Cow
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Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:40 pm
Parish / Diocese: Northampton

Another type of mass

Post by Holy Cow » Tue May 10, 2016 6:57 pm

Dear All,

I hope you can share some ideas with me.

We recently did a parish survey on things that people would like to see happen in our church. I wonder if you had suggestions for the following that were 'directed' at me, me being music leader... We use mainly Laudate and various bits and bobs but I guess I am a stickler for the more traditional sounding stuff:

DIFFERENT MIX OF HYMNS-MORE MODERN AND UPLIFTING
A CHARISMATIC MASS ONCE A MONTH
MORE WORSHIP SONGS
MORE UPBEAT HYMNS AT SOME MASSES

Is there a different hymnal? I have been browsing on http://www.spiritandsong.com/ a lot. Are there any non Laudate composers that I could use more of (I already use BFarrell, CJM etc but perhaps this is not enough)? I know that some of the ideas have come from a parishioner who is 'half' C of E and that we recently had a Sion Mission where they did use songs like 10000 Reasons and such.

I try hard to choose things that are appropriate for each week (we sing all the ordinaries and the 3-4 hymns) and I am always keen to learn more and use more different resources but I still have complaints and requests of whether I can chose something shorter for the Gloria! (although we cant seem to find another to replace the Mike Stanley one... thinking about Mass of St. Frances Cabrini Mass Setting, thoughts on that one??!)

:|

Southern Comfort
Posts: 1792
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Another type of mass

Post by Southern Comfort » Tue May 10, 2016 8:53 pm

I personally feel Kevin Keil's Cabrini Mass Gloria has little to commend it. If you are going abroad for a Gloria, I would suggest you take a look at Michael Joncas's Sing Praise and Thanksgiving Mass from WLP (World Library Publications). The Gloria has an excellent refrain and good verses.

organist
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Parish / Diocese: Westminster cathedral
Location: London
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Re: Another type of mass

Post by organist » Wed May 11, 2016 3:42 am

This is a minefield! You could have a look at Mission praise and New A and M but you need to check texts. A good example is "let us break bread together on our knees" a bit old hat now but liturgical nonsense! Musically many of these worship songs are rubbish so why sing them? :(

oopsorganist
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Location: Leeds

Re: Another type of mass

Post by oopsorganist » Wed May 11, 2016 8:10 am

That's great Holy Cow - to have a parish that is keen to try any new music.

I like the Gloria from the Mass of the Sacred Heart by Timothy R Smith. Although, is it better to have Glorias which are also used in other neighbouring parishes? That is a factor too.

I wish parishes would put the Gloria they use on a sheet, the bulletin, so I knew what I was hearing... they all begin to sound familiar and the same and I can't sort one from the another without some kind of tag. ( Or the dots).

What is wrong with Let Us Break Bread Together on Our Knees? That sudden vision of everyone slapping a french stick across their knees is a cheerful one. Surely is only as daft as lots of the other stuff that has made it into hymnbooks - there is a repertoire of loopyness available but it tends to say praise and God. And it is as accessible to some, or more so, as Victorian hymnody......

Worship music? I have heard some at my kids Anglican school in times past. It's OK. I can live without My Jesus, My Saviour, but others seem to like it. I can't think that Worship music is better or worse than the sort of grim that can be other older hymns. As long as it praises God. It's nice if it supports the Word but the Liturgy is in the Mass so praise is good if supporting hymns don't spring to mind. And a bit of function I guess. (Ah, music for wandering around....)

It is very tricky. That balance where you try to please everyone but then end up with mish mash.
Anyway
Are there still Glorias on the website here? There used to be.
uh oh!

JW
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Re: Another type of mass

Post by JW » Wed May 11, 2016 7:40 pm

Try playing everything faster? Very often when there are concerns about music it's because it's slow.

For instance, I played 'Alleluia Sing to Jesus' - at crotchet- 125 last Sunday, somewhat quicker than traditionally done. You can sing it like this, it's funereal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeZuHnKIlAw
Alternatively, you can sing it like this, they should be humming it later on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2H_za9b_XU

I don't know what speed you play the Mike Stanley Gloria - I think it could go a bit quicker than the YouTube video?

Of course you might already do this.

Have you asked people to suggest some good 'Worship Songs' etc.

N.B. We have comments when our Youth Group plays because people don't know the songs. Also, our young people take a fairly relaxed tempo for their stuff.
JW

IncenseTom
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:50 pm
Parish / Diocese: Diocese of Leeds

Re: Another type of mass

Post by IncenseTom » Wed May 11, 2016 9:04 pm

Gosh, this sounds like a nightmare.

Someone once told me, "remember, you'll never keep everyone happy so all you can do is do what's correct".

Also, remember that there's a difference between religious music and liturgical music and preference should be given to the latter.

oopsorganist
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Location: Leeds

Re: Another type of mass

Post by oopsorganist » Wed May 11, 2016 9:09 pm

Incense Tom you posted at exactly the same time as me and my post has gone!
What are you like?

Perhaps a limited worship repertoire would be useful. One year at Summer School we encountered Here in this time, here in this place by Chris Muglia - which was jolly and easy and rhythmic ...
Jolly is good. Jolly is not just for Christmas.

I shall be cross if my original post is already there!

There is nothing incorrect about music which people request and which is contemporary in feel. :)
uh oh!

oopsorganist
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Re: Another type of mass

Post by oopsorganist » Wed May 11, 2016 9:10 pm

Oh what is the difference between religious music and Liturgical Music in terms of hymns IT?
uh oh!

oopsorganist
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Re: Another type of mass

Post by oopsorganist » Wed May 11, 2016 9:17 pm

IT
all you music could be contemporary, lively and still be Liturgical. Liturgical does not mean grim.
The Word is joy. It is Good News.
uh oh!

oopsorganist
Posts: 739
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Re: Another type of mass

Post by oopsorganist » Wed May 11, 2016 9:18 pm

I left the r off of your. sos
uh oh!

IncenseTom
Posts: 194
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Parish / Diocese: Diocese of Leeds

Re: Another type of mass

Post by IncenseTom » Thu May 12, 2016 3:30 pm

I understand hymns, worship songs, anything 'religious in it's content' sung at Mass to be religious music.

Whereas, I understand the integral parts of the Mass (Kyrie, Gloria, etc etc) including the psalm to be liturgical music.

For everyone, not just the original poster, I would say liturgical music ought to take precedence over religious music. Hymns really aren't important so it's no use worrying over people in the parish liking this or that because you'll never keep them all happy.

Focusing on singing THE mass rather than singing AT mass would be my idea of doing what's 'correct'.

oopsorganist
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Re: Another type of mass

Post by oopsorganist » Thu May 12, 2016 3:50 pm

While there is a precedence for the order in which things are sung... that does not mean that any other music is not Liturgical. Indeed hymns are not necessary but they have got themselves into the job and they can function well as Liturgical Music supporting praise and gathering.

For example, a nice organ piece played at the end of Mass, that has a Liturgical function surely? Music to wander round by that too, serves a Liturgical function.

And as to the style of it all, well that is another area of debate. We have a westerncentric view of things which is also influenced by other denominations. Much of what is thought "correct" in parts, has an Anglican flavour. Hymns as the core of the rituals, that is Methodism. And so on.

I think more recently, the flavour of Catholic Liturgies was often connected to the excellent music composed by our talented Catholic composers and we seem to be losing that in a rush to be "correct". I could be wrong. I often am.

I think Liturgy could be - in one way- what people plan to do. That makes it Liturgical.
uh oh!

Southern Comfort
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Re: Another type of mass

Post by Southern Comfort » Thu May 12, 2016 8:37 pm

IncenseTom wrote:I understand hymns, worship songs, anything 'religious in it's content' sung at Mass to be religious music.

Whereas, I understand the integral parts of the Mass (Kyrie, Gloria, etc etc) including the psalm to be liturgical music.

For everyone, not just the original poster, I would say liturgical music ought to take precedence over religious music [my emphasis]. Hymns really aren't important so it's no use worrying over people in the parish liking this or that because you'll never keep them all happy.

Focusing on singing THE mass rather than singing AT mass would be my idea of doing what's 'correct'.


Perhaps we would be better off using the Universa Laus distinctions between religious music, sacred music, church music, liturgical music and Christian ritual music.

Religious music: any music born of a religious sentiment or composed from the starting-point of a religiously-inspired text. "Religious music is the broadest possible definition of a general relationship between music and organized religion. It does not matter which religion is in question. Some would say that it does not matter if no particular religion is involved; it is the generally religious flavour that counts."

Sacred music: “Sacred music” is equally a general notion in the same sort of line as [“religious music” and “church music”], but here we can see that the aim is to establish a clear boundary with “profane” music. "The term originated in a document by (Lutheran) Michael Praetorius in 1614, and did not become part of the Catholic Church’s vocabulary until the end of the 18th / beginning of the 19th centuries, where it served to underpin a desire for “purity” and a generally conservative agenda. It is normally used in a geographically very limited sense, and takes no account of the fact that the notion of the sacred belongs to the whole of humanity, even pagans, and is not limited to Christianity."

Church music: “Church music” is close to “religious music” but, by specifying the place where this music is normally performed, the term includes connotations of volume of space and atmosphere (fullness, solemnity, etc). Benjamin Britten's church operas, for example, would come into this category. Music designed to be sung in church, but not during a liturgy.

Liturgical music: “Liturgical music” turns our minds towards the use of music in the course of a celebration, and emphasizes the functional link between musical art and liturgy, at the same time distancing itself from an exclusively aesthetic conception of music In other words, music which is designed for use during a liturgy, but does not yet talk about a tight relationship between the elements of the rite and the music used. "We could say that a great deal of music is designed to be used in a liturgical context, but it may not necessarily grow out of the liturgy as an integral part of it – it may indeed be imposed on the liturgy or inserted into it without due regard for what the rite is trying to do."

Ritual music: "Ritual music" translates and underlines the deep union that we are seeking between a particular kind of music and the rite for which it has been composed, or selected, or performed. In other words, music which grows out of the ritual (not imposed on it) and fits the ritual like a glove.

So, while singing the Mass rather than singing at Mass is undoubtedly correct, some of the proponents of this mean "singing the propers of the Mass in the Roman Missal or Roman Gradual", and singing them to chant-like music. Three points about this:
(a) these are no longer the proper chants as they once were in the past. For example, the chants in the Graduale Simplex are just as proper, whether in Latin or English, and GIRM has other "proper" options too.
(b) the antiphon texts in the Roman Missal are not necessariy designed for singing themselves, as we have discussed here ad naus. They are there to remind us to sing something at these points, and if there is no singing to recite these texts.
(c) there is a whole debate waiting to be had about whether the Gregorian chant idiom in its pure form can actually put people off participating in liturgy. At the very least, sensitive handling is required (see, for example, the work of the nuns of Stanbrook Abbey and John Ainslie's English Proper Chants). We are unfortunately already in an age where the use of Latin and English chant antiphons is perceived as liturgical music snobbery, perhaps because proponents of this idiom tend to insist on it to the exclusion of everything else, regardless of whether the people can sing/understand it or not. Statements such as "We have to sing the Latin Introit and Communion chants because this is the only authentic music of the Church and because that is what the Church requires us to do" are unhelpful as well as completely inaccurate.
Last edited by Southern Comfort on Thu May 12, 2016 9:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

IncenseTom
Posts: 194
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Parish / Diocese: Diocese of Leeds

Re: Another type of mass

Post by IncenseTom » Thu May 12, 2016 9:01 pm

I just want to point out, for the sake of clarity, that I haven't mentioned style at all in this discussion.

Southern Comfort
Posts: 1792
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Another type of mass

Post by Southern Comfort » Thu May 12, 2016 9:16 pm

IncenseTom wrote:I just want to point out, for the sake of clarity, that I haven't mentioned style at all in this discussion.


No, and I didn't say you had. I was broadening the discussion because even the statement "We should be singing the Mass rather than singing at Mass" has been hijacked by people with a stylistic agenda. Call my comment a pre-emptive strike, if you like!

But i do think that the UL distinctions are something that we need to take on board.

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