Robert Cardinal Sarah's message to 'Sacra Liturgia' 2015

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir

johnquinn39
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:44 pm
Parish / Diocese: Birmingham

Re: Robert Cardinal Sarah's message to 'Sacra Liturgia' 2015

Post by johnquinn39 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:06 am

"the Real Presence"

'Christ is truly present here (Marty Haugen)

'The presence of the Lord ... is here' (Dave Evans)


Tom, I am at a loss to see how singing the above can lead to a loss of belief in the real presence.

Tom_Neal
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:51 pm
Parish / Diocese: Portsmouth

Re: Robert Cardinal Sarah's message to 'Sacra Liturgia' 2015

Post by Tom_Neal » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:35 pm

Without going into detail, John, here are just two of the many, many reasons that music like the items you identified above are completely unsuitable for the liturgy...

Pope Benedict XVI, in The Spirit of the Liturgy (2000), p.148, wrote:On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses [crowds], is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. “Rock”, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the experience of being part of a crowd and by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober ine­briation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.

Dr. Donelson, speaking at the Sacra Liturgia conference in New York, June 2015 wrote:Bad taste and bad art in the liturgy don’t condemn a soul to hell, but they most certainly do stunt the ability of the liturgy to lead souls to heaven, and they also warp a person’s ability to understand the underlying reality of the liturgy. If bad art adorns the liturgy, people may think that the reality of the liturgy is humdrum, unimportant, or even worse, a farce.

User avatar
mcb
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:39 pm
Parish / Diocese: St John's Cathedral, Salford
Location: Salford
Contact:

Re: Robert Cardinal Sarah's message to 'Sacra Liturgia' 2015

Post by mcb » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:46 pm

Tom_Neal wrote:Without going into detail, John, here are just two of the many, many reasons that music like the items you identified above are completely unsuitable for the liturgy...

Sorry, but I find these comments utterly absurd. Are you familiar with either piece that John proposed? Would you categorise either as 'pop' or 'rock', and if so which? If you're not familiar with either piece I'd respectfully suggest that you don't pass comment on them.

Tom_Neal
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:51 pm
Parish / Diocese: Portsmouth

Re: Robert Cardinal Sarah's message to 'Sacra Liturgia' 2015

Post by Tom_Neal » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:47 pm

P.S. To be absolutely clear, I have never denied the possibility that some religious 'pop' music might, for some people, support their Catholic faith–––like looking at paintings and statues, or reading devotional literature. What I do deny is that this music has a place in the sacred liturgy.

By the way, we're touching upon similar issues in the thread "Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music". On the music of Bob Hurd and the St. Louis Jesuits, for example, another contributor wrote:
keitha wrote:I think most of their music fits well in the context of what are sometimes called "renewal" gatherings (for which, I suspect, most of them were really written), I don't think it is appropriate for the solemn and sacred liturgy which the Mass is. Maybe it's pastoral music, but not necessarily for pastoral liturgy.

Tom_Neal
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:51 pm
Parish / Diocese: Portsmouth

Re: Robert Cardinal Sarah's message to 'Sacra Liturgia' 2015

Post by Tom_Neal » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:05 pm

mcb wrote:Sorry, but I find these comments utterly absurd. Are you familiar with either piece that John proposed? Would you categorise either as 'pop' or 'rock', and if so which? If you're not familiar with either piece I'd respectfully suggest that you don't pass comment on them.


I'm sorry, mcb, that you find the words of the Holy Father "utterly absurd". With which points exactly do you disagree?

Unfortunately, I am familiar with the music. I would say it comes mostly under the "pop" category; but, in a sense, the precise categorisation is irrelevant because the secularising spirit is the same in both cases.

I don't think we should start debating the pros and cons of individual composers; the moderators will tell us to keep on topic! However, aside from his music, if you run a Google search on Marty Haugen, you'll soon discover that not only is he not Catholic (not that that's necessarily a problem when it comes to music), but that he holds opinions contrary to Christian teaching. He hasn't been received into the Church because he doesn't agree with her teachings. Not sure he's the sort of person I'd want to hold up as one of the Church's flagship liturgical composers...

User avatar
mcb
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:39 pm
Parish / Diocese: St John's Cathedral, Salford
Location: Salford
Contact:

Re: Robert Cardinal Sarah's message to 'Sacra Liturgia' 2015

Post by mcb » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:27 pm

Tom_Neal wrote:I'm sorry, mcb, that you find the words of the Holy Father "utterly absurd". With which points exactly do you disagree?

Pope Benedict seems to be talking about rock music. I don't think anyone round here is arguing in favour of rock music in church, so most of what you quoted is irrelevant to the discussion. Beyond that, one person's cult of the banal is another person's little way. The splendor of the rose and the whiteness of the lily do not rob the little violet of its scent nor the daisy of its simple charm.

Tom_Neal wrote:I don't think we should start debating the pros and cons of individual composers; the moderators will tell us to keep on topic! However, aside from his music, if you run a Google search on Marty Haugen, you'll soon discover that not only is he not Catholic (not that that's necessarily a problem when it comes to music), but that he holds opinions contrary to Christian teaching. He hasn't been received into the Church because he doesn't agree with her teachings. Not sure he's the sort of person I'd want to hold up as one of the Church's flagship liturgical composers...

Blimey. Do we judge composers just on their beliefs, or on the extent to which they practice Christian charity in their lives? (It's a rhetorical question, please don't answer it.)

Answer this one, though: do you conscientiously forswear the music of Vaughan Williams, and do you feel that the Church is well served by your doing so?

Tom_Neal
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:51 pm
Parish / Diocese: Portsmouth

Re: Robert Cardinal Sarah's message to 'Sacra Liturgia' 2015

Post by Tom_Neal » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:50 pm

mcb wrote:Do we judge composers just on their beliefs, or on the extent to which they practice Christian charity in their lives? (It's a rhetorical question, please don't answer it.) Answer this one, though: do you conscientiously forswear the music of Vaughan Williams, and do you feel that the Church is well served by your doing so?

I preempted your question! See here:
Tom Neal wrote:not only is he not Catholic (not that that's necessarily a problem when it comes to music)

The composer we were discussing, however, holds anti-Catholic views, which surely cannot be acceptable. How can someone who deliberately, knowingly, and consciously rejects Catholic Truth be regarded as a suitable composer of music for the liturgy?

As for your other question: of course the Church would be well served by purging herself of anti-Catholic influences in the liturgy; how could it be any other way? But we really are wandering from the point. It's the style of this music, and often the manner in which it is executed, which is the problem; not the personality of the composer unless there is a major conflict (as there clearly is in the case cited above).

Anyway, as I say, we're wandering massively off-topic. No one has yet responded to the points I raised in my message dated Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:22 pm. Looking forward to reading your responses! :)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests