Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir

Tom_Neal
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:51 pm
Parish / Diocese: Portsmouth

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by Tom_Neal » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:35 pm

johnquinn39 wrote:Hi Keith & Tom.

In my view -- people can really take ownership of quality texts & music over a period of time -- for example -- the 42 years in
which the Grail Psalms have been sung at the church where I serve on music team.

Further to this -- a great deal of music has proved to be more than epehmeral -- for example -- the Gelineau tones, and the music of
the St. Louis Jesuits.

I am not convinced that the 'new traslation' will prove to be more than ephemeral -- and I do not think people will take ownership of it.


With the greatest respect, johnquinn39, I'm not going to respond to this. We clearly have radically differing views on the subject, and I'm not sure it would be worth the time trying to convince each other. God bless!

User avatar
mcb
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:39 pm
Parish / Diocese: St John's Cathedral, Salford
Location: Salford
Contact:

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by mcb » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:18 pm

johnquinn39 wrote:In my view -- people can really take ownership of quality texts & music over a period of time -- for example -- the 42 years in
which the Grail Psalms have been sung at the church where I serve on music team.

Further to this -- a great deal of music has proved to be more than epehmeral -- for example -- the Gelineau tones, and the music of
the St. Louis Jesuits.

Quite right, John. To my mind it's not so much particular composers that have endured wholesale; rather, individual pieces that combine important texts (faithfully rendered) with music that has some distinguishing character. So, for example, Gelineau's setting of Ps 22(23), or, say, Be not afraid from the SLJs, or Unless a grain of wheat from the St Thomas More Group. In each case you could name a number of other pieces of similar enduring character, but the point is that a healthy repertoire is a real mosaic - all manner of styles and genres, a panoply of composers, but each individual item a piece that has withstood the liturgical/pastoral/musical test of time.

Tom_Neal
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:51 pm
Parish / Diocese: Portsmouth

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by Tom_Neal » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:21 pm

mcb wrote:To my mind it's not so much particular composers that have endured wholesale; rather, individual pieces that combine important texts (faithfully rendered) with music that has some distinguishing character. So, for example, Gelineau's setting of Ps 22(23), or, say, Be not afraid from the SLJs, or Unless a grain of wheat from the St Thomas More Group. In each case you could name a number of other pieces of similar enduring character, but the point is that a healthy repertoire is a real mosaic - all manner of styles and genres, a panoply of composers, but each individual item a piece that has withstood the liturgical/pastoral/musical test of time.


Let me get this right, mcb. You're saying that liturgical music is "pastoral" in so far as it is popular, and for as long as it remains so. Is that a fair summary of your view?

User avatar
mcb
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:39 pm
Parish / Diocese: St John's Cathedral, Salford
Location: Salford
Contact:

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by mcb » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:36 pm

Tom_Neal wrote:Let me get this right, mcb. You're saying that liturgical music is "pastoral" in so far as it is popular, and for as long as it remains so. Is that a fair summary of your view?

No, as paraphrase and précis goes, this is not an accurate representation. I said "each individual item a piece that has withstood the liturgical/pastoral/musical test of time".

User avatar
keitha
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:23 pm

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by keitha » Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:29 am

Returning to John's comment, I know that he and I would not always be in agreement, but I would accept what he says about Grail Psalms/Gelineau Chants, however, I'm not so sure about the St Louis Jesuits (even though we now have a Jesuit Pope!). Whilst I find that, very occasionally, the odd work by them is appropriate for Mass - Bob Hurd's "As the deer longs" paraphrase of Ps 41 comes to mind - I think most of their music fits well in the context of what are sometimes called "renewal" gatherings (for which, I suspect, most of them were really written), I don't think it is appropriate for the solemn and sacred liturgy which the Mass is. Maybe it's pastoral music, but not necessarily for pastoral liturgy.
Keith Ainsworth

alan29
Posts: 1062
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by alan29 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:30 am

Does it get the assembly praying through song? Can there be any other test?

Southern Comfort
Posts: 1792
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by Southern Comfort » Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:39 am

keitha wrote:Returning to John's comment, I know that he and I would not always be in agreement, but I would accept what he says about Grail Psalms/Gelineau Chants, however, I'm not so sure about the St Louis Jesuits (even though we now have a Jesuit Pope!). Whilst I find that, very occasionally, the odd work by them is appropriate for Mass - Bob Hurd's "As the deer longs" paraphrase of Ps 41 comes to mind - I think most of their music fits well in the context of what are sometimes called "renewal" gatherings (for which, I suspect, most of them were really written), I don't think it is appropriate for the solemn and sacred liturgy which the Mass is. Maybe it's pastoral music, but not necessarily for pastoral liturgy.


Ahem. Keith, Bob Hurd is not a member of the St Louis Jesuits.... They are Messrs Foley, Schutte, Dufford, O'Connor and Manion.

But you are right that the SLJ music was not originally for liturgical use but for concert use.

User avatar
keitha
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:23 pm

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by keitha » Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:48 am

Whoops! Apologies for the error.
Keith Ainsworth

Tom_Neal
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:51 pm
Parish / Diocese: Portsmouth

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by Tom_Neal » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:22 am

mcb wrote:
Tom_Neal wrote:Let me get this right, mcb. You're saying that liturgical music is "pastoral" in so far as it is popular, and for as long as it remains so. Is that a fair summary of your view?

No, as paraphrase and précis goes, this is not an accurate representation. I said "each individual item a piece that has withstood the liturgical/pastoral/musical test of time".


So, in that case, are you saying that there exists a body of material which has been proved to be pastoral by its longevity; that this initial success means it is likely to be objectively "pastoral"; and, by implication, that it will always be "pastoral"? Maybe you could clarify? Sorry, I'm genuinely struggling to understand your point!

Tom_Neal
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:51 pm
Parish / Diocese: Portsmouth

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by Tom_Neal » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:29 am

keitha (speaking on Bob Hurd and the St. Louis Jesuits) wrote: I think most of their music fits well in the context of what are sometimes called "renewal" gatherings (for which, I suspect, most of them were really written), I don't think it is appropriate for the solemn and sacred liturgy which the Mass is. Maybe it's pastoral music, but not necessarily for pastoral liturgy.


This is a very interesting point, keitha! Could you develop this further?

johnquinn39
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:44 pm
Parish / Diocese: Birmingham

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by johnquinn39 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:35 am


johnquinn39
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:44 pm
Parish / Diocese: Birmingham

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by johnquinn39 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:37 am


johnquinn39
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:44 pm
Parish / Diocese: Birmingham

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by johnquinn39 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:38 am


Tom_Neal
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:51 pm
Parish / Diocese: Portsmouth

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by Tom_Neal » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:51 pm

John, maybe you could explain to everyone why you've posted those links above? Looking forward to hearing from you :)

oopsorganist
Posts: 739
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Pastoral liturgy and pastoral music

Post by oopsorganist » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:34 pm

Ah,
Blessed Tom
get ye to Summer School, free places still available. Meet real people and be argumentative. Ah, Blessed Tom. :wink:
uh oh!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests