Pope Francis moves to suppress liturgical abuses

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir

Southern Comfort
Posts: 1875
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Pope Francis moves to suppress liturgical abuses

Post by Southern Comfort » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:14 pm

Dom Perignon wrote:I have deleted certain of the most recent posts because, in my view, they drifted off topic and began to drift towards becoming personal attacks. Can we please return to the debate.


Furry Nuff :wink:

JW
Posts: 850
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:46 am
Location: Kent

Re: Pope Francis moves to suppress liturgical abuses

Post by JW » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:28 pm

I see the topic is "Pope Francis moves to suppress liturgical abuses"

Didn't have Pope Francis down as a dancer but he's full of surprises. Being Pope, his moves will all be infallible when he dances around faith or morals ex cathedra, so they'll be worth seeing. Here they are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WK_yez9UM8. It's the first I've heard of moves being used to suppress anything, though :P
JW

BobHayes
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:22 pm
Parish / Diocese: St Mary of the Angels - Diocese of Salford
Location: Ashton-under-Lyne

Re: Pope Francis moves to suppress liturgical abuses

Post by BobHayes » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:53 pm

Dom Perignon wrote:I have deleted certain of the most recent posts because, in my view, they drifted off topic and began to drift towards becoming personal attacks. Can we please return to the debate.


Agreed. :)
Bob

dmu3tem
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:11 pm
Location: Frozen North

Re: Pope Francis moves to suppress liturgical abuses

Post by dmu3tem » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:22 pm

I think the bottom line with any liturgy (or details therein) is whether it 'works' for the people who attend a given service. A liturgy may be 'correct' in every detail; but if it does not meet people's needs and perceptions about what a service should do, then it is useless.

It is inevitable that different people in different places should have different liturgical 'needs'; so any liturgy imposed from the centre has to have some flexibility.

The issue then in this case is: 'how much flexibility is too much flexibility?' In this context it is worth asking whether God particularly minds or is able comprehend what is happening if a set of rubrics is not exactly kept to, especially given the fact that liturgies are drafted by fallible human beings (who hope they are being guided by the Holy Spirit)? If God is all seeing and all knowing then he should be able to cope with alleged deviations. Surely the most important thing is the intent behind the liturgical actions and words?

I also remember that there are passages in the Gospels where Jesus condemns Scribes, Sadducees and Pharisees for overzealous insistence on adherence to the letter of the law while their general social conduct was somewhat deficient. This suggests that a liturgical observance that does not inform our general behaviour as human beings (and vice versa) is flawed. The exchange of greetings as a sign of peace is one of the more obvious manifestations of the links between the two. If we are not prepared to be friendly to our neighbours in church (using the variable social currency that is in vogue) we are unlikely to behave much better in the big wide world.

Note that greater 'flexibility' in local usage does not necessarily imply more 'matey' and extended exchanges. If people want - and derive spiritual comfort - from short rather formal exchanges there is nothing 'wrong' with that per se. The important thing is the intent behind any action and its subsequent consequences.
T.E.Muir

nazard
Posts: 555
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:08 am
Parish / Diocese: Clifton
Location: Muddiest Somerset

Re: Pope Francis moves to suppress liturgical abuses

Post by nazard » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:40 pm

Thank you, Thomas, for those singularly thoughtful remarks.

Last year I had the funerals of my parents in law. On both occasions the priest did not leave the sanctuary to give us the sign of peace. I am grateful that he did not: I would have seen it as a singularly inappropriate gesture. He greeted us sympathetically in the porch when we arrived, and took leave of us at the graveside and the wake with carefully chosen and comforting sentiments.

I appreciate that others may prefer different treatment, and suggest that we all pray for guidance for the priests who have to decide how to treat us bunch of awkward individuals in whatever circumstances they encounter us.

BobHayes
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:22 pm
Parish / Diocese: St Mary of the Angels - Diocese of Salford
Location: Ashton-under-Lyne

Re: Pope Francis moves to suppress liturgical abuses

Post by BobHayes » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:16 pm

nazard wrote:
I appreciate that others may prefer different treatment, and suggest that we all pray for guidance for the priests who have to decide how to treat us bunch of awkward individuals in whatever circumstances they encounter us.


Yes, indeed.
Bob

BobHayes
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:22 pm
Parish / Diocese: St Mary of the Angels - Diocese of Salford
Location: Ashton-under-Lyne

Re: Pope Francis moves to suppress liturgical abuses

Post by BobHayes » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:18 pm

dmu3tem wrote:It is inevitable that different people in different places should have different liturgical 'needs';


The Pray Tell Blog recently featured an interesting discussion about the needs/preferences of the 'consumers'.

http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2 ... e-liturgy/
Bob

alan29
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Pope Francis moves to suppress liturgical abuses

Post by alan29 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:15 am

One of the interesting developments over the past decades is that different parishes have evolved different ways of celebrating Mass together. One of the biggest surprises of Benedict's pontificate is that he should have encouraged the development of an almost Anglican variety of worship styles. In my view this has really opened the door to liturgical consumerism, something that I had always felt to be alien to Catholicism.
Back to the pax at requiems in particular ..... I guess that mourners who are regulars at that parish will know what carries the day there. Visitors from other parishes would know what the range of possibilities is, and non-churched visitors won't know what to make of much of a requiem anyway unless the priest signposts the liturgy as he goes along.

Post Reply