Realising Bishop Alan's hope

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dmu3tem
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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by dmu3tem » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:49 am

Nick Baty wrote:But on this issue there are few (if any) copyright problems.


See the note by musicus in the Feast of the Transfiguration thread (relating to a call for settings of Psalm 96). Now this is a little different, given that the text copyrights are held by The Grail/Collins (and, I believe, for the latest translations by GIA?). Communion and Entrance Antiphons as set out in the Missalette are a little different, but the text copyright issue is basically the same.

If the texts include sections from the Psalms, then are there copyright issues with The Grail/Collins etc?
Even if the answer is 'No' you still have the ICEL copyrights issue to consider.
If the ICEL text 'quotes' other Biblical texts then presumably there are the copyrights of the Bible translations used to consider. I notice that on Missaletttes the copyright references do not clearly distinguish which precise bit of a given text are copyright owned by particular organisations. You have to work this out for yourself and probably play it safe by approaching everyone!
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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by johnquinn39 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:08 am

Do we really need to use the 'official' translations for this?

Okay, we have to stick to the approved texts for the invariable parts of the Mass (RP -- Sanctus etc.).

But for the 'Processional texts', is there a case for just using the scripture and psalm references, and paraphrasing
and redacting these to our heart's content, and wed them to good tunes that people will sing?

alan29
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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by alan29 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:04 pm

dmu3tem wrote:
Nick Baty wrote:But on this issue there are few (if any) copyright problems.


See the note by musicus in the Feast of the Transfiguration thread (relating to a call for settings of Psalm 96). Now this is a little different, given that the text copyrights are held by The Grail/Collins (and, I believe, for the latest translations by GIA?). Communion and Entrance Antiphons as set out in the Missalette are a little different, but the text copyright issue is basically the same.

If the texts include sections from the Psalms, then are there copyright issues with The Grail/Collins etc?
Even if the answer is 'No' you still have the ICEL copyrights issue to consider.
If the ICEL text 'quotes' other Biblical texts then presumably there are the copyrights of the Bible translations used to consider. I notice that on Missaletttes the copyright references do not clearly distinguish which precise bit of a given text are copyright owned by particular organisations. You have to work this out for yourself and probably play it safe by approaching everyone!


And thats without considering how freely available composers want to make their efforts.
Its such a shame that there isn't a place here where we can just post what we have written as a freely available resource without copyright rearing its head.

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Nick Baty
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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by Nick Baty » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:40 pm

dmu3tem wrote:If the texts include sections from the Psalms, then are there copyright issues with The Grail/Collins etc?
Even if the answer is 'No' you still have the ICEL copyrights issue to consider.
Only if you use those translations and, with ICEL in particular, why would you?

dmu3tem wrote:Communion and Entrance Antiphons as set out in the Missalette are a little different, but the text copyright issue is basically the same.

But would you really expect your assembly to sing the 40+ words of this Sunday's Communion Antiphon?
Last edited by Nick Baty on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nick Baty
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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by Nick Baty » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:41 pm

alan29 wrote:Its such a shame that there isn't a place here where we can just post what we have written as a freely available resource without copyright rearing its head.
You could set up a WordPress page with very little effort. But do you really want to give things away?

alan29
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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by alan29 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:02 pm

Nick Baty wrote:
alan29 wrote:Its such a shame that there isn't a place here where we can just post what we have written as a freely available resource without copyright rearing its head.
You could set up a WordPress page with very little effort. But do you really want to give things away?

I fear I am not skilled enough to set up such a page. Yes, I'm quite happy giving stuff away (I don't think i have ever earned a penny from publishing, (though I think I got five bob from the Beeb when my responses were broadcast from Liverpool Met) but the copyright stuff on texts is thoroughly off-putting.

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Nick Baty
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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by Nick Baty » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:17 pm

alan29 wrote:...the copyright stuff on texts is thoroughly off-putting.
Then avoid using copyrighted texts! But copyright is not as complicated as some people fear. Find out who owns the rights to the text, ask for permission to use it and at what (if any) cost. I was recently given permission to use the Grail Mganificat – flat fee of £40! A couple of emails and all sorted.

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contrabordun
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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by contrabordun » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:31 pm

Paul Hodgetts

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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by JW » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:40 pm

We're starting to go over ground on copyright that we've covered a few times previously. Given the topic heading, perhaps Bishop Alan could exert some pressure to get scriptural and other texts used for Mass de-copyrighted because I suspect that copyright of both text and music is a major obstacle to realising Bishop Alan's hope. Even inclusion of these texts within the scope of the CCL &/or Decani licenses would help (though it would only benefit parishes who have these licenses). Again, we've mentioned previously that Psallite has settings for Entrance & Communion processions for the full 3-year cycle - BUT a resource like that costs money. If your parish has hymnbooks and Decani & CCL licenses, are you really going to spend a lot more money on additional processional resources?

Please, I would not wish to have any of this interpreted as my not wishing to see writers and composers properly recompensed for their work. The problem with the Mass texts is that they are a monopoly resource and so the copyright holders, who are often not the actual translators of the texts, have everyone over a barrel. I've made my views known on the morality of this previously.
JW

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contrabordun
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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by contrabordun » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:27 pm

Don't disagree with that, but of course the copyright holder (eg ICEL etc) have paid the actual translators and covered the travel and accommodation costs, and regardless of whether the particular organisation is for- or not-for-profit, it will have budgeted those costs against copyright revenue.
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Nick Baty
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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by Nick Baty » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:06 pm

JW wrote:...perhaps Bishop Alan could exert some pressure to get scriptural and other texts used for Mass de-copyrighted because I suspect that copyright of both text and music is a major obstacle to realising Bishop Alan's hope.
Only if you insist on using the ICEL translations for Introit, Communion. And they really aren't very singable, so why would you want to.
JW wrote:Psallite has settings for Entrance & Communion processions for the full 3-year cycle - BUT a resource like that costs money. If your parish has hymnbooks and Decani & CCL licenses, are you really going to spend a lot more money on additional processional resources?
If you have a Calamus licence it won't cost you a penny extra to use Psallite.

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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by Southern Comfort » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:12 pm

Whenever the Entrance or Communion Antiphon is a psalm verse, you will find that this is taken direct from the Revised Grail Psalter, so not copyright ICEL but administered by GIA. I am not clear if the Calamus licence, which covers all GIA music, also covers this revised translation (it certainly covers the present Grail psalter).

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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by John Ainslie » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:47 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:Whenever the Entrance or Communion Antiphon is a psalm verse, you will find that this is taken direct from the Revised Grail Psalter, so not copyright ICEL but administered by GIA.

Be careful here. Entrance and Communion verses are often not direct quotations of psalm or other scriptural verses, but were originally edited for the purpose back in the seventh century. The result is that, although they are often similar (and sometimes identical) to the Revised Grail Psalter, the translations in the Missal are specifically tailored to match the original Latin texts. That is why ICEL can (and does) assert copyright over their use of them.

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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by JW » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:47 pm

Apologies for my mistake: the Calamus license does cover the Liturgical Press who publish Psallite. So, for those who want to go down this route, and have a Calamus licence, there's already a resource available.

There could be a way round the copyright issue: to use English translations published before ICEL, Grail etc. came into being, for example in old Latin/English missals. Copyright holders could then be referred to the pre-existing sources. There are many English translations of the Bible no longer in copyright, e.g. Douay-Rheims version, as well as several modern public domain translations like the Catholic Public Domain version.

The Entrance Antiphon for tomorrow is Cf. Ps 16.15. In the Catholic PD version Psalm 16.15 is rendered as "But as for me, I will appear before your sight in justice. I will be satisfied when your glory appears." This isn't greatly different from the missal text.


There is also the point that any new work on processionals would need approval from the Bishops Conference to satisfy the demands of the GIRM for general use at Mass in England & Wales.
JW

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Nick Baty
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Re: Realising Bishop Alan's hope

Post by Nick Baty » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:50 pm

JW wrote:any new work on processionals would need approval from the Bishops Conference
No it wouldn't. Only mandatory texts need approval.

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