Out with the Inwood, and in with the oldwood

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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johnquinn39
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:44 pm
Parish / Diocese: Birmingham

Out with the Inwood, and in with the oldwood

Post by johnquinn39 »


johnquinn39
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:44 pm
Parish / Diocese: Birmingham

Re: Out with the Inwood, and in with the oldwood

Post by johnquinn39 »


alan29
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Out with the Inwood, and in with the oldwood

Post by alan29 »

I suspect he (and others) might be out of step with the Pope.
http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2 ... lock-back/

dmu3tem
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:11 pm
Location: Frozen North

Re: Out with the Inwood, and in with the oldwood

Post by dmu3tem »

I glanced at the remarks made by Bishop Egan that triggered this exchange; and liked much of what I saw. However, the feature that arrested my attention was the idea that if we have a multicultural society with many people for whom English is only a second language then priests should be enjoined to acquaint people with key parts of the Mass and its liturgical connotations in Latin.

How many non-English (and English) speakers have Latin as their first or second language?
T.E.Muir

nazard
Posts: 555
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:08 am
Parish / Diocese: Clifton
Location: Muddiest Somerset

Re: Out with the Inwood, and in with the oldwood

Post by nazard »

I don't think the intention was to cater to ancient romans. I think the idea is just so as to avoid giving the impression that any one section of the population was being favoured over the others. Anyone for a Gloria in broad yam yam?

alan29
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Out with the Inwood, and in with the oldwood

Post by alan29 »

I am reminded of a holiday in Alsace. The priest realised that there was a multi-lingual congregation on his mountain-top church, so he chose to celebrate in Latin. As a result nobody could join in (apart from me, and with a stentorian voice so as to embarrass les enfants. :wink: )

Southern Comfort
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Out with the Inwood, and in with the oldwood

Post by Southern Comfort »

alan29 wrote:I am reminded of a holiday in Alsace. The priest realised that there was a multi-lingual congregation on his mountain-top church, so he chose to celebrate in Latin. As a result nobody could join in (apart from me, and with a stentorian voice so as to embarrass les enfants. :wink: )


This recent publication is extraordinarily useful in all sorts of situations, whether for those presiding or those attending:

http://www.litpress.org/Products/3456/the-order-of-mass-in-nine-languages.aspx

It uses the revised 2010 English translation. Each page contains 9 boxes with the equivalent texts in the different languages (which include Latin).

alan29
Posts: 1177
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Wirral

Re: Out with the Inwood, and in with the oldwood

Post by alan29 »

Southern Comfort wrote:
alan29 wrote:I am reminded of a holiday in Alsace. The priest realised that there was a multi-lingual congregation on his mountain-top church, so he chose to celebrate in Latin. As a result nobody could join in (apart from me, and with a stentorian voice so as to embarrass les enfants. :wink: )


This recent publication is extraordinarily useful in all sorts of situations, whether for those presiding or those attending:

http://www.litpress.org/Products/3456/the-order-of-mass-in-nine-languages.aspx

It uses the revised 2010 English translation. Each page contains 9 boxes with the equivalent texts in the different languages (which include Latin).


superb ...... would you believe we are going to Germany this year - not included.

justMary
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:53 pm
Parish / Diocese: Republic of Ireland

Re: Out with the Inwood, and in with the oldwood

Post by justMary »

dmu3tem wrote:t if we have a multicultural society with many people for whom English is only a second language then priests should be enjoined to acquaint people with key parts of the Mass and its liturgical connotations in Latin.


I know this thread is several months old, but I'm only just catching it now.

And feeling the need to share some very heartfelt feedback from some of the Africans in my current parish, which roughly translates as:

First, we have our own tribal language - we need to keep that. Then there's French, for talking to the other tribes. Then there were the missionaries, and we had to learn English to talk to them. Now we're living in Ireland, and our kids have to learn Irish at school - so we need to wrap our heads around a bit of that too. And now you want us to do Latin stuff for church? You cannot be serious!


The joy of their having so many languages is that the grammar is "interesting" and most ideas are delivered in a way that sounds loud and confused to my Anglo ears! So those phrases aren't quite the way they put it. But you get the general idea.

The Eastern Europeans are generally too polite to say something that "bold", but I get the feeling they may feel similar. It seems that many of them have some degree of Russian as a second language.

Our western-European concepts of English as "second language" don't actually seem to fit neatly with most of the immigrants I've met.

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VML
Posts: 717
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:57 am
Parish / Diocese: Clifton Diocese
Location: Glos

Re: Out with the Inwood, and in with the oldwood

Post by VML »

Including people of various language groups is a knotty problem.
The government and educational publishers have tried, resulting in a national census published in 54 languages, and posters on the church hall door, used by the after-school club, in 28 languages. but neither of these efforts includes our most numerous group of incomers, Filipinos. Tagalog is not on any official papers and the only publicationI have seen it on is the calendar from the Apostleship of the Sea.
It is assumed they have English as a second or main language. And trying to involve immigrants musically, except in Masses specially for their language group,
it not easy. What happens is that the people who have moved to England are not necessarily the ones who have much knowledge of or interest in their own Church music.
Hard to face, but they have come to a country called England...

John Ainslie
Posts: 385
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:23 am

Re: Out with the Inwood, and in with the oldwood

Post by John Ainslie »

VML wrote:What happens is that the people who have moved to England are not necessarily the ones who have much knowledge of or interest in their own Church music.

I recall when the Westminster Music Committee was running a music day some years ago in a parish in central London. I discovered that the local choir was run by two ladies who appeared to be of African cultural background - as were 75% of the parishioners, so I was told. Neither of them could read music and there were no instruments. Their greatest problem was deciding on which note to start a piece - and then starting it on the same note! Their favourite hymn? 'Sweet sacrament divine'!

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