Papal Inauguration Mass

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old barmaid
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Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by old barmaid »

Does anyone else agree wuth me about the general awfulness of Polyphonic inserts into
Plainsong? I hated the Gloria and the Te Deum. (I did not see all the Mass. there may heve been more.) I would be glad of enlightenment regarding a Composer called Palumbella whose music was used here and there. What was the dreary dirge like piece they were singing during Communion? 2000 years of Eucharistic chants/motets/hymns to choose from and they picked that. The Ave Verum came as a real relief.
On another matter. I hope that after seeing the Sovereign Pontiff venerate the statue of Our Lady while Salve Regina was sung AFTER the dismissal, I do not have to argue with
local clergy that it is permissible to sing a hymn to Our Lady or the saint of the day at this point. Incidentally, why Salve Regina not Ave Regina Caelorum in Lent?

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VML
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Re: Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by VML »

Totally agree about polyphonic inserts. I imagine the Salve Regina was for the same reason as the rest of the Mass music: The best known Catholic general knowledge tunes.

alan29
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Re: Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by alan29 »

Yes those inserts were pretty dreadful, and not well done either with the massive rall at the end of each one.
They really could do with a choir trainer from Northern Europe to sort out their ensemble and tuning issues.
I thought some of the organ bits and bobs were a touch "Blackpool Tower" as well.
I was struck by how unfamiliar the Pope seemed with the Latin at times.

JW
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Re: Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by JW »

The Communion Antiphon (marked: La schola e l'assemblea!) was: "Joseph fili David, noli timere accipere Mariam coniugem tuam: quod enim in ea natum est, de Spriritu Sancto est."

A rough translation (though, I submit, better than the one in the booklet): "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to accept Mary as your wife: for what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit." Personally, I am surprised this was considered appropriate for Communion?

I wonder if some of the problems with the music were down to the event taking place outside and the Vatican not being geared up for Stadium events? Perhaps they should hire the Rolling Stones' road management team?

The choir's rendering of straightforward plainchant did seem odd, I was surprised by a lot of note lengthening. Plainchant works best when the choir are absolutely together; this choir was not. The director looked quite annoyed during the Sanctus. But then, if a choir doesn't sing this stuff regularly you need a lot of practice time to sing plainchant together - it's not as if there are 4 beats to a bar. All the same, the music wasn't difficult, they didn't seem particularly well-rehearsed and I assume they are a professional choir.

Most people appeared to be spectators and did not seem to participate in the singing or the responses. This applied to some of the clergy present as well. Perhaps a rehearsal in the hour before the Mass could have borne fruit.

I wonder how many in the Square actually managed to receive Communion? Despite all the ministers, it looked as if only those near to the barriers could receive - people further back couldn't get close enough because, I guess, those at the front weren't going to give up the prime spaces.

Did anyone notice, during the Pater Noster, there was a bishop joining in with arms outstretched with his mobile phone in his palm?

I also felt a bit embarrassed that after the Mass, the Pope had to spend ages hob-nobbing with the VIPs, including Robert Mugabe. And this after he had preached on the importance of prioritising those whose needs are ignored!
JW

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Re: Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by JW »

BTW, Massimo Palombella appears to be the director of the Sistine Chapel choir.
JW

IncenseTom
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Re: Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by IncenseTom »

old barmaid wrote:Does anyone else agree wuth me about the general awfulness of Polyphonic inserts into
Plainsong? Incidentally, why Salve Regina not Ave Regina Caelorum in Lent?


Yes - I agree. The polyphonic sections really got in the way of the prayer of the chant.
I also wondered about the Salve replacing the Ave Regina - not sure what sort of precedant that sets when so many parish musicians are battling away to try and sing the right thing in the right place/ at the right time.
But, ah, yes:

VML wrote:I imagine the Salve Regina was for the same reason as the rest of the Mass music: The best known Catholic general knowledge tunes.


Give the people what they know inside out. That's what it's all about.

alan29 wrote:I was struck by how unfamiliar the Pope seemed with the Latin at times.
:shock:

I also agree about the choir being a touch rough around the edges - I can think of several UK Cathedral choirs who could have nailed that repertoire. Still, none of us are perfect - we are all broken and in need of fixing.

kerrezza
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Re: Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by kerrezza »

JW wrote:I wonder how many in the Square actually managed to receive Communion? Despite all the ministers, it looked as if only those near to the barriers could receive - people further back couldn't get close enough because, I guess, those at the front weren't going to give up the prime spaces.

This photo is from the Chicago Tribune and shows priests, with fetching yellow and white umbrellas, making their way through the crowd to distribute Communion http://www.trbimg.com/img-1363709172/tu ... 30319/1024

One of our former PPs was there for one of the big occasions and I'm sure he told me that they have priests stationed along Via della Conciliazione and side streets distributing Communion.

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musicus
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Re: Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by musicus »

JW wrote:The choir's rendering of straightforward plainchant did seem odd, I was surprised by a lot of note lengthening. Plainchant works best when the choir are absolutely together; this choir was not. The director looked quite annoyed during the Sanctus. But then, if a choir doesn't sing this stuff regularly you need a lot of practice time to sing plainchant together - it's not as if there are 4 beats to a bar. All the same, the music wasn't difficult, they didn't seem particularly well-rehearsed and I assume they are a professional choir.

This might throw some light on the poor ensemble (if you can get past Fr Ruff's heavy-handed hyperbole): http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2 ... n-liturgy/
musicus - moderator, Liturgy Matters
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organist
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Re: Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by organist »

I was hoping for some South American rhythms but alas nothing like that at all! How disappointing that there was not as much participation as one would have hoped. Compare to the Archbishop of Canterbury's enthonement with some splendid hymns and great choral singing!

Southern Comfort
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Re: Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by Southern Comfort »

One of the things that annoys me about big Anglican occasions is that they think that foursquare hymns is all the congregation is capable of singing so that's all they give them. I attended one big service in St Paul's a few years ago which had no less than nine hymns for the congregation. Ugh!

If only they would give the people something else to do: responsorial psalms, litanies, call-response acclamations of different kinds, dialogues between wonderful choir music and wonderful assembly music, ostinato chants — the possibilities are endless with the use of a bit of imagination. But no, it's hymns, hymns, and yet more foursquare hymns.

<Rant off>

What happens in the piazza at St Peter's is no better. Most of the people don't sing at all, even for old warhorses like the Salve Regina, because in fact large numbers of people around the world no longer know that kind of repertoire. There is also no encouragement to the people to sing — crucially there is no animateur de chant, and little or no congregation-friendly music (prolix Latin propers, plainsong interrupted with caterwauling choral inserts, Roman chant versions that no one knows because they all sing Solesmes versions if they sing chant at all — none of this fills the bill).

It would be comparatively simple to get half a million people on the piazza and down the Via della Conciliazione to sing and participate strongly, even only there were any willingness to do it. And see remarks above re possible repertoire. If places like Lourdes and Taizé can do it, Rome certainly could. But the willingness is not there, and for the most part the people are relegated to the role of spectators..... and that's how many of the Roman powers-that-be would like them to remain.

I am hoping that Pope Francis may take action to rectify this situation.

<Rant really off now!>

londonchurchman
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Re: Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by londonchurchman »

Southern Comfort wrote:One of the things that annoys me about big Anglican occasions is that they think that foursquare hymns is all the congregation is capable of singing so that's all they give them. I attended one big service in St Paul's a few years ago which had no less than nine hymns for the congregation. Ugh!

If only they would give the people something else to do: responsorial psalms, litanies, call-response acclamations of different kinds, dialogues between wonderful choir music and wonderful assembly music, ostinato chants — the possibilities are endless with the use of a bit of imagination. But no, it's hymns, hymns, and yet more foursquare hymns.


You are right that it is strange: especially since Anglicans are such good singers that they will sing almost anything you throw at them. Many Anglican church liturgies now use responsorial psalms instead of the gradual, gospel acclamations, and singing of the great Amen. I have also heard sung litanies at the intercessions and some of the most beautifully sung Creeds.

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Re: Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by VML »

Southern Comfort wrote:


It would be comparatively simple to get half a million people on the piazza and down the Via della Conciliazione to sing and participate strongly, even only there were any willingness to do it. And see remarks above re possible repertoire. If places like Lourdes and Taizé can do it, Rome certainly could. But the willingness is not there, and for the most part the people are relegated to the role of spectators..... and that's how many of the Roman powers-that-be would like them to remain.

I am hoping that Pope Francis may take action to rectify this situation.

>


Doesn't anyone in Rome think like this? Do they even hear it the way we hear it?

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Nick Baty
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Re: Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by Nick Baty »

On the subject of assembly music at Mass, I once said to an Anglican friend, “Your advantage is that you have a 500-year tradition. Ours is just 50 years old.” He replied, “And your advantage is that you have a 50-year tradition and ours is 500 years old.”

Hymn singing is part of CofE tradition. Many churches do not sing at hymn at the beginning. The ministers process in, there are words of welcome and then the hymn is sung – the hymn itself is the act rather than the Roman tradition of music accompanying the act.

But things are changing: I regularly attend an Anglican eucharist where, as “a Roman” I’m asked for advice about the forms which SC mentions. I’m not sure how typical this church is but I do know that many CofE parishes use various Paul Inwood eucharistic settings.

On the subject of Lourdes, SC is 100% spot on. And you have to hear this music in the place for which it was written. To be part of a massive congregation singing some of those great chants is incredibly moving.

VML wrote:Doesn't anyone in Rome think like this?
Is that one of them rhetorical-type questions?

londonchurchman
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Re: Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by londonchurchman »

Nick Baty wrote:On the subject of assembly music at Mass, I once said to an Anglican friend, “Your advantage is that you have a 500-year tradition. Ours is just 50 years old.” He replied, “And your advantage is that you have a 50-year tradition and ours is 500 years old.”

Hymn singing is part of CofE tradition. Many churches do not sing at hymn at the beginning. The ministers process in, there are words of welcome and then the hymn is sung – the hymn itself is the act rather than the Roman tradition of music accompanying the act.

But things are changing: I regularly attend an Anglican eucharist where, as “a Roman” I’m asked for advice about the forms which SC mentions. I’m not sure how typical this church is but I do know that many CofE parishes use various Paul Inwood eucharistic settings.

On the subject of Lourdes, SC is 100% spot on. And you have to hear this music in the place for which it was written. To be part of a massive congregation singing some of those great chants is incredibly moving.



Not really 500 years Nick. Hymnody in the CofE only became properly established in the early 19th century so they have only got a 150-year advantage over us! :D

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Nick Baty
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Re: Papal Inauguration Mass

Post by Nick Baty »

First sentence isn't about hymnody – it's about assembly music at Mass.
Apologies for any confusion.

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