New Pope

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alan29
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Re: New Pope

Post by alan29 »

So he washed women's feet too.
I like this Bishop of Rome.

Anne
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Re: New Pope

Post by Anne »

Yes, so do I.

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mcb
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Re: New Pope

Post by mcb »

I see that the Secretary of the Bishops' Conference Liturgy Office has pronounced against the washing of women's feet. I wonder why Fr Gunter felt the need to issue an instruction, especially one going against the Pope's example?

I'm curious, what's more, as to the source of Fr Gunter's view that the washing of feet in the liturgical context is an imitation of the Last Supper and "intrinsically attached" to the institution of the priesthood. For my money it's neither of these things.

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Nick Baty
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Re: New Pope

Post by Nick Baty »

Especially when read in the context of the preceding chapter in John: before ministering to others, the Lord received a similar ministry from Mary.

Yes, I've posted this somewhere here before – but it's an idea which has stuck with me because I think (and other pastoral musicians) I could learn from it.

JW
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Re: New Pope

Post by JW »

When they use the word 'intrinsic' you know that no dissension will be brooked! If Fr Gunter is correct, then the Pope was misguided to wash women's feet even for pastoral reasons: because those pastoral reasons exist in nearly every church in the Catholic world. I suspect the Pope was very aware of the message that he wanted to give in washing the feet of people of all genders.

This (as with the 'Bishops' thread) is simply another example of how far some clergy are detached from the morality of those whom they serve. Of course, a century ago, there were many who opposed women readers, servers and extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist for similar reasons.
JW

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mcb
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Re: New Pope

Post by mcb »

JW wrote:Of course, a century ago, there were many who opposed women readers, servers and extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist for similar reasons.

Not sure that two out of those three ministries existed a century ago. :-) But it's not much more than a century since popes were stamping their feet about women singing in the choir.

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Nick Baty
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Re: New Pope

Post by Nick Baty »

And our bishops supported that until at least 1967.
Although if women had to sing, they said, they shouldn't be robed and shouldn't be in the sanctuary.

Howard Baker
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Re: New Pope

Post by Howard Baker »

Of course, women were allowed onto the sanctuary outside of liturgies.... to do the cleaning!

HallamPhil
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Re: New Pope

Post by HallamPhil »

"I'm curious, what's more, as to the source of Fr Gunter's view that the washing of feet in the liturgical context is an imitation of the Last Supper and "intrinsically attached" to the institution of the priesthood. For my money it's neither of these things." writes mcb.

I agree. For me the washing of feet is intrinsically linked to the eucharist in that once we have received and, in the words of Augustine, 'become what we receive' we are urged to be Christ ... to wash the feet of the world in any way we can.

I can remember Kathleen Hughes some years ago at an NNPM conference saying 'Do this in memory of me' ... we seem to have forgotten some if the 'this'.

What is even more curious than Fr Gunter's interpretation, is the fact that we do eucharist frequently but wash feet only once a year at a poorly attended Mass in Holy Week. I have organised liturgical foot washings at primary school gatherings, assemblies of the diocese and Greenbelt Festival and the opportunity has been welcomed.

Perhaps if we washed feet more frequently then we might more readily understand that our participation in Mass is completed by our participation in the mission of the church, in the action of Christ continued through/in us in selfless deeds for all but particularly for the poor, marginalised and vulnerable today.

Boadicea
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Re: New Pope

Post by Boadicea »

We missed out completed this year, as no feet were washed at all. The excuse given was that not enough people had volunteered - "so we will not be having the optional washing of the feet this year". I'm not convinced by the lack of volunteers excuse though. I know that many felt very cheated.

HallamPhil
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Re: New Pope

Post by HallamPhil »

The L'arche Community do foot-washing very frequently as I am told do the Mennonite church.

I didn't realise it was 'optional'.

killary45
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Re: New Pope

Post by killary45 »

Does Dom Paul Gunter think that Pope Francis wants us to learn from what he says, and not from what he does?

Southern Comfort
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Re: New Pope

Post by Southern Comfort »

Dom Paul is quite incorrect in accusing the Pope (in the full printed Tablet reportage) of breaching Church law and disobeying what is in the liturgical books.

The fact is that the rubric refers only to "the chosen men", who are led to their seats. Nowhere does it say that women are prohibited from having their feet washed — in fact it does not mention women or children at all, let alone prohibit them. Those who find this line of reasoning a step too far may take comfort in the fact that the rubric also does not say that women's feet may not be washed in addition to the feet of the chosen men. In Canon Law, what is not expressly prohibited can be deemed to be permitted.

God knows why we have to go through these semantic and canonical contortions when the Pope himself has given us an example of living out the Gospel.

johnquinn39
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Re: New Pope

Post by johnquinn39 »


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Nick Baty
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Re: New Pope

Post by Nick Baty »

Now I know I'm not going to phrase this properly so bear with me (I'm over 50, overweight and currently on knock-out horse pills) but....

I'm delighted by Pope Francis's recent actions. To wash the feet of young offenders is one thing. But to work his way down the social scale and include women is something else. (Why these ladies weren't in the parish centre buttering scones and pouring tea ;) is another question for another time.)

So are we now saying, "It's OK because the pope did it...." In which case, fair enough, but can using precedent also be a tad awkward?

For example, there are those with whom I disagree (that's putting it very mildly) on certain musical matters. These goodly folk (it's sunny so I'm being charitable) claim to have won their various arguments because "When Pope Benedict came to Britain...." blah, blah, etc etc. And if we're accepting Francis's (IMHO) excellent precedent do we also accept Benedict's rather grim precedent and, in some instances, silence our congregations?

And, back to Mgr Burnham's letter in The Tablet, when I lived in East Anglia (pop 6 including a dachshund called Colin and a chicken in her late 40s) we never had any problem finding 12 people (OK, that includes women too) to have their feet washed. Back in Liverpool (pop 20 trillion, despite the efforts of one former prime minister to wipe us out) we struggled to find six.

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