Ordo Queries

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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Nick Baty
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by Nick Baty »

Would still love to know what IHTAF means!!
I have to admit frankly?

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musicus
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by musicus »

IIRC, it means "I'll have to ask Father."
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Nick Baty
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by Nick Baty »

So what's IIRC?

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Nick Baty
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by Nick Baty »

And why do we say "double-u, double-u, double-u, dot" when "worldwide web" has fewer syllables?

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VML
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by VML »

IIRC is if I remember correctly, if I remember correctly.... :D

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Gwyn
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by Gwyn »

For the Ventriloquists' helpline, visit guggle-u guggle-u guggl-u got . . .
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by Hare »

Gwyn, your comment when I asked you this question privately, and said I was going to post it here as well, was spot-on seeing how this is going! :lol:

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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by Gwyn »

Sure can Hare. :P

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musicus
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by musicus »

Nick Baty wrote:So what's IIRC?

Ho ho - I just knew someone would walk into that one!

(Seriously: Google will swiftly answer all these little queries - if I recall correctly.)
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by quaeritor »

Nick Baty wrote:Would still love to know what IHTAF means!!
I have to admit frankly?

Quaeritor - in another thread wrote: "I Hear Those Angel Feet" - that'd be the ones dancing on the head of that pin!

Now all I have to do is find out how to post a link to another thread! - ah the joys of technology!

Q

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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by FrGareth »

VIGIL ISSUE

There are two distinct issues concerning Sundays and other Holy Days of Obligation.

Q1. What do you have to do to fulfil your obligation?

Q2. Which Mass should the priest celebrate?

---

A1. To fulfil your obligation to attend Mass on the N'th of Monthember, you can attend any valid Mass whatsoever on the Nth, or any valid Mass whatsoever in the "evening" (i.e. 4pm or later) on day N-1 of Monthember. It could be a wedding Mass, an extraordinary form Mass, or an Eastern rite Mass (the latter two possibly following different calendars) but you have still fulfilled your obligation; on day N-1 it could be a Mass proper to day N-1 celebrated 4pm or later, but it would still fulfil your obligation. (One caveat - if two Holy Days fall consecutively, as happens when Christmas Day occurs on a Saturday or Monday, you cannot fulfil two obligations simultaneously by attending an evening Mass on the first of the two days. You discharge one obligation only per Mass attendance!)

A2. If a priest is celebrating Mass in the evening on day N-1 with the intent of it being a community Mass for a community intending to fulfil their obligation for day N, he will normally use the Mass formulae for day N. BUT, for a few celebrations as identified earlier in this thread, the Missal gives DIFFERENT texts, and sometimes different lectionary readings as well. In these cases, which a well-constructed Ordo will highlight, the anticipated Mass on the evening of day N-1 must use these special vigil texts.

Canon Law states

Can. 202 §1. In law, a day is understood as a period consisting of 24 continuous hours and begins at midnight unless other provision is expressly made.

Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.


I assume that the historical reason behind this is so that religious communities which celebrate a daily Mass and rearrange their daily schedule on High Days can highlight these Solemnities by making a two-day feast using texts which avoid repetition.

Where different readings are provided for the Vigil I always feel obliged to use them, though this is less convenient when you know you are preaching to two different congregations. It's similar to the dilemma on days like Candlemas and Palm Sunday when a richer rite is to be used at the Principal Mass - but for those who only attend one of the available Masses, that is their Principal Mass even if it isn't mine! I do wish on these occassions that a rubric would say "same treatment may be applied to all Masses if the congregations are different". (Maybe in the 4th edition of the Roman Missal?)
Last edited by FrGareth on Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by FrGareth »

PEACE SUNDAY

The explanation at the start of this thread is quite correct. Techies may discover the handiwork of a wikipedian called Gleyshon here....
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by FrGareth »

CHRISTMAS WEEK

Now a question FROM me, since this is a broad-based topic.

Is anyone aware of clear written instructions on what happens to the Psalter Week following Christmas Day?

Some treatments seem to assume that the beginning of Christmastide "resets" the counter in the same way that Advent and Easter do, so it becomes Week 1.

Other treatments seem to assume that all six days following the Fourth Sunday of Advent are Week 4, regardless of which day that week Christmas falls, and the calendar rolls over to Week 1 the following Sunday.

Does anyone know an official written source which settles the matter?
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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by John Ainslie »

FrGareth wrote:Is anyone aware of clear written instructions on what happens to the Psalter Week following Christmas Day? Does anyone know an official written source which settles the matter?

The answer is contained in article 133 of the General Instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours, where it states that the four-week cycle starts on the First Sunday of Advent, the First ordinary Sunday of the Year, the First Sunday of Lent and Easter Sunday. When Ordinary Time restarts after Pentecost, it picks up the appropriate week of the cycle (Sunday number modulus 4, 0=4). No other resetting.

Christmas will normally occur within the fourth week of Advent, as it did this year, so we are now in the second week of the cycle - confirmed in my copy of the Divine Office, vol 1, p 328, where it states clearly: Psalter: Week 2. Next Sunday being the Baptism of the Lord but also the beginning of the first week of Ordinary Time, it's back to week 1.

If Christmas occurs on a Sunday (as it did in 2011), it will be the beginning of the week after the fourth Sunday of Advent, so will be Week 1, Jan 1 will start week 2, and Jan 8, being the Baptism (except for England & Wales, where it is the Epiphany, God help us!), starts a new week 1 as above.

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Re: Ordo Queries

Post by quaeritor »

FrGareth wrote: To fulfil your obligation to attend Mass on the N'th of Monthember, you can attend any valid Mass whatsoever on the Nth, or any valid Mass whatsoever in the "evening" (i.e. 4pm or later) on day N-1 of Monthember.

Thank God (and Fr Gareth) for a note of sanity in this issue which has aggravated me for a number of years - and which has saved you all from an extremely long and possibly blasphemous post from me about the nonsense that would have a congregation rising up in a body on hearing the first sentence of the first reading and rushing across town to St Ethelburghers in the hope of catching a "proper" Mass - I'll consign that to the dustbin of Windows (with only a tinge of regret as it was quite witty although in undoubtedly poor taste).

Q

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