Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by musicus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:59 am

alan29 wrote:..... "One Bread, one Body......."
Would the Didache pass the "don't call it bread or its the Spanish Inquisition for you" test?

I wouldn't expect so. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by Gwyn » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:20 pm

I don't like much, but I do like a nice Inquisition.

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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by mcb » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:05 pm

Peter wrote:how pedantic should we be about the use (or avoidance of use) of the term "bread" after the Consecration?

It would be completely wrong to avoid it. A quick look at chapter 6 of John settles it.

The thornier question is the use of the word wine, which has much less in the way of scriptural or liturgical precedent. We've been here before a few times, I think.

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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by JW » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:18 pm

alan29 wrote:..... "One Bread, one Body......."
Would the Didache pass the "don't call it bread or its the Spanish Inquisition for you" test?


Hate to be pedantic but the Spanish Inquisition disappeared nearly 200 years ago. The only Inquisition left was the Roman one; originally the Congregation of the Holy Office, now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. They're still very active as this article in today's Irish Times confirms:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2013/0121/1224329104628.html

As to the Didache, to what extent should its Eucharist section this be taken as a model for a 21st Century Mass? Though I rather like the idea that "Prophets however should be free to give thanks as they please" - no sticking to the laid-down text or correct translation here.

"One bread, one Body" is a reference to the following section of the 'Eucharistic Prayer' in the Didache:

"As this broken bread, once dispersed over the hills, was brought together and became one loaf, so may thy Church be brought together from the ends of the earth into thy kingdom." To repeat, it is part of an early Eucharistic Prayer.

If the hymn is used as an Offertory hymn, rather than Communion, then surely no one can object...
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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by Peter Jones » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:48 pm

mcb wrote:The thornier question is the use of the word wine, which has much less in the way of scriptural or liturgical precedent. We've been here before a few times, I think.


These also reel with wine and stagger with strong drink; the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink, they are confused with wine, they stagger with strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in giving judgment.
Isaiah 28:7

I refrain from comment lest I stumble in giving judgement. :wink:
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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by Peter Jones » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:04 pm

JW wrote:
alan29 wrote:
"One bread, one Body" is a reference to the following section of the 'Eucharistic Prayer' in the Didache:


Hmmmmmm - well I can see why you would suggest this but I think you might be on more firm ground with 1 Cor 10:17.

(Which came first, 1 Corinthians or the Didache? Is Paul using the DIdache to underpin chapter 10 or is the Didache reliant on St Paul? Discuss! )
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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by JW » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:13 pm

All I would say is I'm under the impression that Foley credits Didache as his source for One Bread One Body - am not able to check this out at the moment.
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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by Peter Jones » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:19 pm

Peter wrote:....... the Fraction Rite is described as "The Breaking of Bread" in some editions of the Missal .......


Peter - do you not know where this phrase originates?
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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by Peter Jones » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:34 pm

Gwyn wrote:Colin Donovan speaking on EWTN in 2004 said;
"The problem is the implication that "the hour" in which grace is infused, is when "I believed."
Catholic doctrine is that faith given preparatory to baptism does not confer grace, ............


Whatever happened to prevenient grace?
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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by Peter Jones » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:41 pm

JW wrote:All I would say is I'm under the impression that Foley credits Didache as his source for One Bread One Body - am not able to check this out at the moment.


One notes Foley's political correctness in the ambiguity of the androgyny in verse one and even wonders, were the text true, how the human race will continue to reproduce.
Verse three is indeed lifted from the Didache.
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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by Peter » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:45 pm

Peter Jones wrote:
Peter wrote:....... the Fraction Rite is described as "The Breaking of Bread" in some editions of the Missal .......


Peter - do you not know where this phrase originates?

Presumably Acts 2:42, but it's interesting to note that as a heading it seems to have disappeared from the latest edition of the Missal.

"One Bread, one Body" appears in the section "The Church on Earth" in Laudate and so is not recommended specifically for Communion, though I have known it used there; "We Come as Guests Invited" is in the section "Communion Processional Songs" and I would still welcome thoughts as to the suitability of this one as such.

One of the reasons I raised this one is that for a long time, under a previous PP, we used Michael Hewlett's "Jesus, our master, on the night that they came" (English Praise no 65) but a few years ago we had it at Corpus Christi and our present PP described it as "not fit for purpose" because it emphasised "remembrance" rather than the real presence. I've since used texts by Patrick Lee, such as "The Promise" or "Communion Sonnet" (both in I Wake Refreshed, Matthew James Publishing, 2004), which refer unequivocally to Christ's presence in the consecrated elements.

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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by Peter Jones » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:54 pm

Peter wrote:Presumably Acts 2:42, but it's interesting to note that as a heading it seems to have disappeared from the latest edition of the Missal.


The phrase is indeed scattered through Acts - and, for example, we can notice how "Mass is offered" (Paul broke bread) for poor Eutychus who had nodded off during the homily and fallen out of the window (20:12). Read towards the end of Luke's first work, the Gospel, for the first use of the phrase (Lk 24 - the Road to Emmaus story). Breaking bread is the first term for the celebration of the Eucharist and as it is "the Word of the Lord" there is no problem whatsoever with its use.(If I am more strict with myself, I could argue that the first use is at the feeding of the multitude miracles - John 6, Mark 6, Matthew 14, Luke 9. Jesus says the blessing (give thanks and praise - eucharist) breaks and distributes - something I do "acting in the person of Christ" just about every day.)

What about last Sunday's Gospel - the wedding at Cana - that something to do with the eucharist surely!
Or how about Isaiah 25:6-9 - often used at funerals. If that isn't eucharistic (the destruction of death and the banquet of heaven), I'll eat my hat.

In this Year of Faith, we are being reminded that the whole of the Bible is Christ - and I have commented elsewhere about J Cullen failing to notice the scriptural foundations of a eucharistic hymn he thinks is heretical because it doesn't talk about real presence.

In regard to real presence, hymn texts can speak about that, for sure BUT I think it could also be much more valuable, devotional and even quietly exciting if a singer were enabled to discern that presence - or even have that presence revealed to him/her personally - through a scripturally based text. For example - would you prefer to plough through the logic of Aquinas and grapple with concepts of accident, species and substance (ST III, 73 - 83) OR have the experience of real presence, as the disciples on the road to Emmaus at supper with Lord? (Both are possible, of course!)

Way, way before Aquinas, the Church sang Psalm 34 - Taste and see that the Lord is good. - at the Communion procession.She still does. Perhaps read and pray that Psalm....a good reminder to us all that Eucharist involves praise and thanksgiving.
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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by Peter Jones » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:11 pm

Peter wrote:"One Bread, one Body" appears in the section "The Church on Earth" in Laudate and so is not recommended specifically for Communion, though I have known it used there; "We Come as Guests Invited" is in the section "Communion Processional Songs" and I would still welcome thoughts as to the suitability of this one as such.


We come as guests invited
when Jesus bids us dine.
His friends on earth united
to share the bread and wine.
The bread of life is broken,
the wine is freely poured
for us, in solemn token
of Christ our dying Lord.

We eat and drink, receiving
from Christ the grace we need,
and in our hearts believing
on him by faith we feed;
with wonder and thanksgiving
for love that knows no end,
we find in Jesus living
our ever-present friend.

One bread is ours for sharing,
one single fruitful vine,
our fellowship declaring
renewed in bread and wine:
renewed, sustained and given
by token, sign and word,
the pledge and seal of heaven,
the love of Christ our Lord.

Timothy Dudley Smith

Hmmmm. Perhaps the theological assessor of the new Laudate thought there was enough leeway in interpretation of this text for it to squeeze through the net. For me, verse two reeks of the receptionist theology of Cranmer in the BCP and I myself would have rejected it.
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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by Peter » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:58 pm

Thanks, Fr Peter, for that last post, which echoes my own misgivings but with rather more authority. Interesting that it has made it into the revised Laudate!

Thanks, too, for the previous post, which is also helpful, though using the term "Breaking of Bread" in a context where we are aware of the scriptural resonances is something I'm more comfortable with anyway. Perhaps my introducing it in the first place was too much of a red herring: the topic is after all "Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine". :oops:

Do you, or any other readers, have any thoughts on the hymn my PP objected to (below)?

1. Jesus, our Master, on the night that they came
to take you to prison, to death and to shame,
you called to your table the friends that you knew
and asked them to do this in remembrance of you.

2. Still, through the ages, your new friends draw near
and know when they do so that you will be here;
we know you are present, though just out of view
to meet those who gather in remembrance of you.

3. When it is over and all gone away,
come back to our thoughts for the rest of the day
and stay with us always, who met here to do
the things you commanded in remembrance of you.

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Re: Hymns that conflict with Catholic doctrine.

Post by Southern Comfort » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:30 am

Peter Jones wrote:
Gwyn wrote:Colin Donovan speaking on EWTN in 2004 said;
"The problem is the implication that "the hour" in which grace is infused, is when "I believed."
Catholic doctrine is that faith given preparatory to baptism does not confer grace, ............


Whatever happened to prevenient grace?


Or baptism by desire, come to that?

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