50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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nazard
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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by nazard » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:20 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:...If the first meaning is the one intended. then lacking gorm (i.e. lacking someone seriously deprived in intelligence) would be a good thing. If the second, then this may mean that the Mass is boring.


It was the second meaning which I intended. The first I have never heard. It surprises me that anyone would shorten a word by dropping the suffix "less". I suggest that this usage is restricted to the gormless. The new mass is not so much boring as vacuous.This could, of course, be the reason that people find it easier to understand.

Southern Comfort wrote:I have heard very few people citing lack of gorm or anything else in the 1969 Missa Normativa as a reason for desisting from going to Mass, or even leaving the Church. I have, however, come across a multitude of people who stopped because of Humanae Vitae, or because they had a bad experience with an unsympathetic priest...


Our experiences differ. Although I have known a few people put off the church by Humanae Vitae most are put of by the banality of the new mass. To many people it just isn't worth getting your back off the bed for.

Southern Comfort wrote: or because they found the priest's way of presiding at a revised Order of Mass in a way similar to the way he celebrated the Tridentine Mass simply too tedious.

There were various faults in the way some priests said the tridentine mass. The most common ones were rushing, mumbling, and giving tedious, rambling or vacuous sermons. All these faults persist. New faults have crept in which I never saw in a tridentine mass: behaving like a game show compere making asides through the mass in the style of Graham Norton and inventing their own texts to replace those of the missal.
Southern Comfort wrote:We all need to put much more work into what we have today: coasting along on autopilot simply won't do.


Seconded.

Southern Comfort wrote:I would also say that the overwhelming majority embraced the revised Order of Mass, and the use of the vernacular, with great joy, and say they do not want to return to the previous régime under any circumstances.


I would say that although people grumbled about the introduction of English, they accepted it with resignation and obedience. It was the revised Order of Mass which really upset people. You are correct in your appraisal that people do not want to return to the staus quo ante. The church going population has adapted to the order of mass as offered. The problem is to come up with an order of mass and a way of implementing it which draws people in, and stops our teenagers leaving.

Peter Jones wrote:
Southern Comfort wrote:............or because they found the priest's way of presiding at a revised Order of Mass in a way similar to the way he celebrated the Tridentine Mass simply too tedious........


Some years ago I did read an article on this. Many priests who were used to "putting on Christ" in the manner of the Pius V/1962 Missal, could no longer hide their personalities - including their insecurities and their "stage fright" - beneath their vestments. Many found the expectations of presiding difficult - and I have fond memories of a fairly-recently deceased colleague who never really mastered the skills of presiding with the Missal of Paul VI because he became a nervous wreck facing a church full of people.


How should a priest say the new mass?

alan29
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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by alan29 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:30 pm

The last time I heard the translated mass being blamed for declining attendances, it was followed from the mouth of the same preacher ...... "and the lax standards of Vatican II are to blame for the child abuse among the clergy." He wasn't best pleased when I pointed out to him that most of those abusers had in fact been formed in pre Vat II days.
From conversations among those I know, I have not once heard "the Mass is in English" as a reason for their not going to church. There are those who see the church as deeply unattractive, there are those who see it as irrelevant, and there are plenty of people of good will who just disagree with much of the sexual teaching, or whose lives are in tension with that teaching.
To my mind, to blame the translation of the liturgy is to imitate the ostrich.

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Nick Baty
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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by Nick Baty » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:49 pm

nazard wrote:Although I have known a few people put off the church by Humanae Vitae most are put of by the banality of the new mass.
Sorry, Nazard, but I'm afraid I have to say a "Poppycock" and say it very loudly.
nazard wrote:The problem is to come up with an order of mass and a way of implementing it which draws people in, and stops our teenagers leaving.
Do you have a recipe for such a huge project?

The only people I know who are journeying towards the Church at the moment are doing so with the only Mass they know – the present form, in English, despite the appalling 2010 translation.

The teenagers I work with would applaud the bishops' statement of last week which called for a living wage (no chance while Cameron and co are holding the purse strings). But our PR is crap and all they'll hear about is yet another call for Catholics to oppose Same-Sex Marriage – and they still haven't come up with a single valid argument.

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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by Peter Jones » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:56 pm

nazard wrote:How should a priest say the new mass?
Not according your list of "various" and "new" faults above. How about "fully and consciously acting in the person of Christ"? (The priest "acts in the person of Christ" - in virtue of his ordination. This is a profound theological statement: one of the four "real presences" of Christ unequivocally stated in the Constitution (SC 7). It does not mean "acting" as in playing a part in a theatrical production.)
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nazard
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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by nazard » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:03 pm

Nick Baty wrote:
nazard wrote:Although I have known a few people put off the church by Humanae Vitae most are put of by the banality of the new mass.
Sorry, Nazard, but I'm afraid I have to say a "Poppycock" and say it very loudly.

We seem to have different experiences. I have noted yours.
Nick Baty wrote:
nazard wrote:The problem is to come up with an order of mass and a way of implementing it which draws people in, and stops our teenagers leaving.
Do you have a recipe for such a huge project?

Not a new one - but Sacrosanctum Concilium seems a pretty good start to me.
Nick Baty wrote:The only people I know who are journeying towards the Church at the moment are doing so with the only Mass they know – the present form, in English, despite the appalling 2010 translation.

That is hardly surprising - your posts give me the impression that you assiduously avoid other forms of mass. People whom you do not know are journeying towards the church with other forms of mass.

nazard
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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by nazard » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:06 pm

Peter Jones wrote:...How about "fully and consciously acting in the person of Christ"?...


That must surely apply to all forms and rites of Holy Mass. Do you have any practical advice to priests about how to achieve that desirable end, and to the laity on how to recognise that the priest has achieved it?

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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by Southern Comfort » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:25 pm

nazard wrote:
Peter Jones wrote:...How about "fully and consciously acting in the person of Christ"?...


That must surely apply to all forms and rites of Holy Mass. Do you have any practical advice to priests about how to achieve that desirable end, and to the laity on how to recognise that the priest has achieved it?


This isn't an answer to that question, but it relates to it, and to what I said earlier on this thread about putting more effort into what we do.

Sarcosanctum Concilium 11:

But in order that the liturgy may be able to produce its full effects, it is necessary that the faithful come to it with proper dispositions, that their minds should be attuned to their voices, and that they should cooperate with divine grace lest they receive it in vain [28] . Pastors of souls must therefore realize that, when the liturgy is celebrated, something more is required than the mere observation [sic] of the laws governing valid and licit celebration; it is their duty also to ensure that the faithful take part fully aware of what they are doing, actively engaged in the rite, and enriched by its effects.
[my emphasis] [sic — the translator should have used "observance", not "observation", which is something rather different]

This must have been mind-blowing to many folks 50 years ago. What?! Something more is required? Do you mean rubrics are not enough? And the Council Fathers are clear: no, they are not. Mere observance of the laws is like cruise control. True engagement in the rite is what is needed.

I think we all know that Fr Game-Show-Host's heart may be in the right place, and he thinks that by force of personality he can effect the engagement of the assembly — but he is trying much too hard. Somewhere between him and the liturgical robots of former times lies a via media which allows all participants, clergy and lay, to be full human in what they do, and to express who they are as a celebrating Christian community, without taking over the rite; which enables the liturgy to be a celebration, not the discharge of an obligation; which is both joyful and prayerful; which has an effect on the lives of all participants (i.e. mission).

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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by nazard » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:16 pm

I think that you have a very valid point here. Fr Game-Show-Host has chosen disobedience rather than observance. However, obedience can be empty. It is possible to say the words without any meaning. It is possible to perform the gestures so trivially that they look as though the priest is embarrassed by them, or so over effusively that they look as if the priest is taking the mickey. The other very important thing for the priest is to carry the holiness of the mass out into his daily life. The mass may well be still valid without getting any of these things right, but the lesson is so much better taught when they are.

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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by Nick Baty » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:40 pm

nazard wrote:We seem to have different experiences. I have noted yours.
Yes, good point and fairly made.
Nick Baty wrote:...your posts give me the impression that you assiduously avoid other forms of mass....
Some yes. I probably wouldn't go to a Tridentine Mass as I wouldn't know what was going on and the only one I know locally clashes with our Sunday Mass, so I couldn't attend that one anyway. Having said that, I'm just back from an Anglican Eucharist (basically Common Worship with a few tweaks) celebrated on the Sunday nearest to World Transgender Day of Remembrance. There were several tansgender people present – few were welcomed in their own denominations. We lit candles for all those who have been killed for being the way God made them. In the last 12 months that's 256.

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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by Peter Jones » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:31 pm

nazard wrote:Do you have any practical advice to priests about how to achieve that desirable end, and to the laity on how to recognise that the priest has achieved it?


Well for a start, focus on the presence of the Lord - where two or three are gathered - and recognise that "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ…" or "Grace to you and peace…" or simply "The Lord be with you" are themselves the (Pauline) greetings. Can anyone remember when Fr Chat-Show Host began to add the woefully unbecoming and inappropriate "Good morning" to the Introductory Rites? When did abuses such as this begin to creep in? It is appropriate for the priest to give a very brief introduction to the Mass of the Day (RM p.549) - so do just that and nothing else. At least no one I know has added "Have a nice day" ("You too Father") after the blessing and dismissal.
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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by Nick Baty » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:40 pm

Peter Jones wrote:...the woefully unbecoming and inappropriate "Good morning" to the Introductory Rites? When did abuses such as this begin to creep in?
Do you really see that as an abuse? Compared with some practices it doesn't even register.

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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by Peter Jones » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:54 pm

Nick Baty wrote:Do you really see that as an abuse? Compared with some practices it doesn't even register.


Yes I do. Over to you if you want to suggest others that crept in which score higher on your scale.

When, for example, this was published, my jaw dropped and I began to wonder what on earth some people were/had been doing.
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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by Nick Baty » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:58 pm

Well there are a few cathedrals which simply ignore para 54.

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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by Peter Jones » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:12 pm

nazard wrote:I think that you have a very valid point here. Fr Game-Show-Host has chosen disobedience rather than observance.........


Objectively perhaps (or perhaps not - some priests have been attacked for tinkering with the liturgy when all they have been doing is acting according to norms that contain phrases such as "these or similar words".)

Subjectively, a priest may have been acting in ignorance or under a misguided sense of liberty - see particularly paragraphs 7 and 9 of my link above.
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Re: 50 (or more) years on - Sacrosanctum Concilium

Post by Peter Jones » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:19 pm

Nick Baty wrote:Well there are a few cathedrals which simply ignore para 54.


Nick is referring to Redemptionis Sacramentum - my link above.
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