BJHN conference speech

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Howard Baker
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Howard Baker » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:07 pm

But there is a huge range of practice (even here in this self-selecting group). Is it down to taste?

John Ainslie
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by John Ainslie » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:12 pm

I think we need an appraisal of the Missal (and Graduale) antiphon texts in relation to their musical usability. The prayers and order of readings were reviewed and revised by the relevant bodies for the revised Missal and Lectionary respectively. The antiphons were left unchanged (a) to respect the fact that their Latin originals were locked together with the Gregorian chant to which they had been set, and/or (b) in the expectation that new texts and music would eventually provide alternatives more suited to their newly defined purpose (see GIRM 47, 86).

Some of the antiphon texts are very fine, e.g. the Entrance Antiphons for Christmas Day and for Maundy Thursday. But they are in a difficult format: too long for a refrain, for a start. And they were never intended for singing by the assembly, but by a highly-trained professional schola (at seventh-century papal stational Masses in Rome!). Some antiphon texts are quite general, even pedestrian: has anyone noticed how the entrance antiphons for the Sundays in Ordinary Time are simply assigned to the Sundays in numerical order of psalm?

Then there is whole rich theology of the laity's participation in the Entrance Rites which was rediscovered and developed before, at and after Vatican II, and is only hinted at by GIRM - and which the best modern texts have sought to express for the people's participation and spiritual benefit. The textual and musical form of the hymn has its limitations - and is quite unsuitable for the Communion procession - but the role of hymns in making our hitherto silent Catholic congregations into singing assemblies should not be gainsaid. However, we need to move forward. This is still a developing area of liturgical renewal.

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Nick Baty
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Nick Baty » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:15 pm

Howard Baker wrote:But there is a huge range of practice (even here in this self-selecting group). Is it down to taste?
You might find a few different styles – down to taste? – here but a general middle-of-the-road consensus. And most folk share the same principles. And I suspect all would agree about the functionality of music in the liturgy and our duty to ensure that the assembly sings that which is rightly theirs/ours.

Peter Jones
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:24 pm

I do wonder with Cullen and people of similar mind-set that if you exclaimed "Vatican II is the best thing since sliced bread - and that embraces, white, brown, 50/50, sesame seeded, poppy-seeded, multi-seeded ............!!!" - you'd get the answer, "I don't like sliced bread." Perhaps we just have to accept that there will always be an impasse within certain groups in the Church. Look at the tough time Paul had with the Judaising factions in the Early Church.
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Nick Baty
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Nick Baty » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:29 pm

Quite. Now Peter Jones and I disagree on a few things but we've still managed to share an occasional late-night glass of wine over the phone. Saluté PJ!

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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:40 pm

Nick Baty wrote:........and our duty to ensure that the assembly sings that which is rightly theirs/ours.


Careful now - look at the raw GIRM and look at what our Bishops consider best practice (CTM). Cullen, with his ultramontanist tendencies, will surely defend his views on every word that comes out of the mouth of the Palazzo delle Congregazioni. What he thinks the assembly should sing might not be what you think they have a right and duty to sing. (See also my own views in a recent M & L about the option of a choral Gloria, to the exclusion of the assembly. Permissible? Yes it is. Desirable? Read my views.)
Last edited by Peter Jones on Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Peter Jones
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:41 pm

Nick Baty wrote:Saluté PJ!
And with your spirit.
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Nick Baty
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Nick Baty » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:42 pm

:D

Peter Jones
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:50 pm

John Ainslie wrote:I think we need an appraisal of the Missal (and Graduale) antiphon texts in relation to their musical usability.


Awwwww...... I was thinking you might have gone even further and sided with the late Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, who really did want to tackle the conciliar thrust of engaging with the modern world. He might be pushing up the daisies now but if he were still alive here on earth, he'd be pushing for an entire revision of not just antiphons but the whole Missal! :D (Even in the Sacred College there is a polarity on matters liturgical - Martini/Pell)
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Howard Baker
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Howard Baker » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:05 pm

Nick Baty wrote:he'd be pushing for an entire revision of not just antiphons but the whole Missal! (Even in the Sacred College there is a polarity on matters liturgical - Martini/Pell)


Cardinal Martini of happy memory? Antiphons and the Missal would be the least of it! If only he had been thirty years younger: perhaps Vatican III and a whole-scale reappraisal of what it means to be a Catholic Christian in a world so different now even from 1962. The agenda might have become so radical and exciting that matters of music and liturgy would pale.

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Nick Baty
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Nick Baty » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:09 pm

You've misquoted me, HB. I didn't say any of that.

Peter Jones
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:15 pm

Nick Baty wrote:You've misquoted me, HB. I didn't say any of that.


It was me HB ........ it's easy to get confused with this software.
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:35 pm

John Ainslie wrote:This is still a developing area of liturgical renewal.


This is still an organically developing area of liturgical renewal.....or even better, "of our liturgical tradition."
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BobHayes
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by BobHayes » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:36 pm

Howard Baker wrote:
Nick Baty wrote:he'd be pushing for an entire revision of not just antiphons but the whole Missal! (Even in the Sacred College there is a polarity on matters liturgical - Martini/Pell)


Cardinal Martini of happy memory? Antiphons and the Missal would be the least of it! If only he had been thirty years younger: perhaps Vatican III and a whole-scale reappraisal of what it means to be a Catholic Christian in a world so different now even from 1962. The agenda might have become so radical and exciting that matters of music and liturgy would pale.


We could have stepped through the window of opportunity, developed our offer to open new markets, re-branded the Church and adopted a new logo to replace the 'respected but dated' Crucifix. With technology at our disposal we could have a monitor above the 'Communal Zone' (previously known as the Sanctuary) on which the ever-changing words of The New Creed (incorporating the latest news-worthy theological interpretation) could be displayed. This would be operated - but not controlled - by the Presiding Officer (formerly known as the Priest) who would be elected by the People to serve a five-year term, using the d'Hondt system of proportional representation. Ah, how many of us have been along the jolly road of 'continuous improvement going forward'?
Bob

Howard Baker
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Howard Baker » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:23 pm

Sorry, NB, for my techno-idiocy. HB

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