BJHN conference speech

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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johnquinn39
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BJHN conference speech

Post by johnquinn39 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:39 pm

http://www.jlpressagency.com/OratoryMus ... ullen.html

I think that John Henry Newman would be surprised to learn that the traditional music of our church does not involve eagles and mountains.

What about sunrise?

'His splendor was like the sunrise; rays flashed from his hand, where his power was hidden.' (Habakkuk 3:4)

johnquinn39
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by johnquinn39 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:56 pm

'If you are inspired, all that you need is available on the web ... ' (Joseph Cullen -- above speech).

This is not true.

Peter Jones
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:44 pm

He doesn't seem to realise that the new editions of Laudate and Celebration require an Imprimatur. He's also, in my opinion, not on a very firm footing in his history of the introduction of vernacular hymnody at Mass - the hymn sandwich. (See Musicae Sacrae On Sacred Music - Pope Pius XII - 1955 - nos 62 - 66 - this is a PAPAL document.)
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Peter Jones
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:59 pm

johnquinn39 wrote:What about sunrise?


Indeed. Doesn't Malachi 1:11 / Psalm 112 appear in a Eucharistic Prayer?
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Peter Jones
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:13 pm

Try this setting !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tmt5-li5hI

Too repetitive? Lacking in musical development? Saved from tedium by the key change? But even if not particularly to my taste (and, I should think, Mr Cullen's) you cannot deny this is pastoral music enabling the assembly in its rightful active participation in sung prayer.
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Peter Jones
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:37 pm

I fail to see why Mr Cullen thinks Proverbs 9:5 is heretical (Fill my house.....). After all, this is the Word of the Lord and it does prefigure the Eucharist.
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johnquinn39
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by johnquinn39 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:41 pm

" ... mainly about 'me' ... "

The 'me' is the Davidic 'me' of the psalms -- which, has everything to do with Catholicism.

Bernadette Farrell's setting of Ps.139 'O God, you search me ... ' is not 'Muzak'.

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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:32 pm

And if he's having a go at "Eagle's Wings" - that's another Psalm setting - Psalm 90 (91)
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JW
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by JW » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:52 pm

Why is it that so many people are so dogmatic about music in the liturgy - "if you don't do it this way you are flirting with heresy"?

I understand that St Peter's in Rome had a Mass where 'Amazing Grace' was sung a few Fridays ago.... certainly not Roman Catholic sentiments as to salvation, even though we can live with them nowadays - the hymn would have been condemned out of hand 100 years ago. I also guess that the psalm used for the Gathering Hymn was not the Grail version; it certainly wasn't plainchant (more Andrew Lloyd Webber style) and I doubt it was in the Graduale for that day. The choir providing the music for that day were from a non Catholic, non religious Grammar School.

So.. would Joseph Cullen condemn the St Peter's authorities as well?
JW

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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:43 pm

Cullen is a highly respected and excellent musician. There's some good material in this talk with which many of us would agree. However, I think the somewhat polemical - if not pugnacious - style in places let's him down and also damages the reputation of the still fledgling BJHNI. If Cullen's brief was to introduce the antiphons in the Missal - what they are and pointers to best practice - that would have been interesting and helpful. But we can do without those parts of the text that, to me, seem a bit of a rant - and we could also do with a greater foundation in liturgical knowledge and understanding. Nowhere does GIRM state we should all be singing from the same hymn sheet, for example.

Surely a lecture in a teaching institute should aim towards developing the knowledge, skills and understanding of the participants on the course. It's not a forum/opportunity for grinding axes.
Last edited by Peter Jones on Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Southern Comfort
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Southern Comfort » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:45 pm

Now here's a question from his discursive natter:

How many of you have ever heard an Introit at Mass?


I would like to reframe it:

How many of you have ever heard an Introit at Mass that had d*mn-all to do with the readings in the Lectionary but just happened to be in the Grad-you-ah-lay Row-mah-noom?

Sorry, that's very unfair. Just couldn't resist it. Well, perhaps it's not as unfair as all that. Yes, it has been a hard week....

Southern Comfort
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Southern Comfort » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:53 pm

Here's another quote:

All of this will fall on its face if priests do not sing their rightful parts.


In my diocese, all the clergy were encouraged to sing more, even if chanting on a single note, in order to help the new texts get embedded. They have continued to sing, including some who had never sung at Mass before. Some people have complained about this (!), but mostly it has gone well. I think Joseph Cullen might be pleasantly surprised if he were to visit some parishes in this part of the world.

Peter Jones
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:10 pm

JW wrote: "if you don't do it this way you are flirting with heresy"?


JW - there are some nutters around who would even condemn Jesus for heresy for calling himself "bread"'. (John 6) The Lucan phrase "breaking of bread" would receive similar opprobrium - there just ain't no Transubstantiation there, innit!

We do need this Year of Faith!
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Peter Jones
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:20 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:Now here's a question from his discursive natter:


Arrange these words into a well-known phrase or saying:
nail have on you the head the hit

Cullen - who admits he's not used to public delivery such as this - reads to me as if the whole has been rather hastily prepared and not too well thought out.
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Peter Jones
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Re: BJHN conference speech

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:26 pm

johnquinn39 wrote:"
The 'me' is the Davidic 'me' of the psalms -- which, has everything to do with Catholicism.


I must remember that....... now bidden to profess "I believe....", I am using the Davidic "I"? :D (Or is "I" a collective personal pronoun? :? The Creed sure seems a lot to do with "me, me, me" these days - unlike the Gloria, where we are still permitted to praise, bless, adore..... as one. Consistent this new translation in its ecclesiology - innit!)

The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread......

So who's going to condemn St Paul for Heresy?
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