Malurgy

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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BobHayes
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Re: Malurgy

Post by BobHayes »

alan29 wrote:Are you thinking of things like the SVP Appeal when done by the parish group leader?
I personally have no problem with that sort of thing - liturgy is meant to lead its participants to help bring about the Kingdom, isn't it? A specific invitation can't be a bad thing, surely?
Trying to remember the name of the Russian theologian who wrote about the liturgy after the liturgy - connecting life and worship (another bit of non-catholic phraseology, I'm afraid.)


An SVP appeal is a worthy cause; so too are appeals for Aid to the Church in Need, Caritas, fundraising for the local hospice, fundraising to send young parishioners to WYD Rio, fundraising for the roof and so on. No matter how worthy the cause, a presentation disrupts the spiritual encounter that is Holy Mass. What is more the General Instruction (n.90 and n.166) permits only 'brief announcements', so presentations should not be taking place.
Bob

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keitha
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Re: Malurgy

Post by keitha »

I doubt if John's fears will ever be realised - we struggle to find the funds to keep a lot of our churches and presbyteries properly maintained, let alone funding new (and unnecessary) rood screens and altar rails!

Possibly connected (?), I was very grateful for the introduction of the receipt of Holy Communion in the hand. Sticking out one's tongue always seems very undignified to me, and I well remember the 'up close and personal' views of bad teeth, tonsils and oddly coloured tongues (plus the occasional odour that was not one of sanctity!) that I got when I was an altar server holding the Communion-plate. I would hope that the authorisation for receiving in the hand is never removed. I would, having seen the sacred host fall to the ground a few times recently, like to see the Communion-plate reappear (see norm 93 of Redemptionis Sacramentum)
Keith Ainsworth

Peter Jones
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Re: Malurgy

Post by Peter Jones »

johnquinn39 wrote: Back on topic -- In my view it would be Malurgy to install altar rails & rood screens in churches that were
never designed for them. Is there a danger that this might happen?


The Statement of Justification that would accompany a Faculty Application would make interesting reading.
Any opinions expressed are my own, not those of the Archdiocese of Birmingham Liturgy Commission, Church Music Committee.
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Hare
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Re: Malurgy

Post by Hare »

Peter Jones wrote:
johnquinn39 wrote: Back on topic -- In my view it would be Malurgy to install altar rails & rood screens in churches that were
never designed for them. Is there a danger that this might happen?


The Statement of Justification that would accompany a Faculty Application would make interesting reading.


Altar rails were installed in a church built in the early 1990's not a million miles from here, 3 or 4 years ago....

justMary
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Re: Malurgy

Post by justMary »

alan29 wrote:
Nick Baty wrote:Doesn't work. Folk don't read these things. We see this time after time.


Ha, ha!
What do you think they do during the homily, Nick?


Don't know what Nick thinks - but I can guarantee that the 23% of ours who are functionally illiterate aren't reading the bulletin during the homily.

(I'm fortunate to have picked a parish where this number doesn't hold. But if there had been a better bus service to that side of town, I could easily have picked one that makes up for our over-educated lot.)

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Nick Baty
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Re: Malurgy

Post by Nick Baty »

The government figure for national illiteracy is just 1% but my experience is, like Mary's, that this is hugely optimistic. And literacy tests don't really assess understanding. So a newsletter statement about the new arrangements for confirmation/first communion are unlikely to have much impact.

And how many parishes produce newsletters and service sheets in large-print editions for the visually impaired on on cream paper for those with dyslexia? I only know of one around here.

BobHayes
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Re: Malurgy

Post by BobHayes »

Am I missing something here? Literacy levels in GB parishes may have an impact on the exposition - an understanding - of the Liturgy: is that is what is being said? :?:
Bob

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Nick Baty
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Re: Malurgy

Post by Nick Baty »

They're going to have an effect on our ability to take in all the practical info from the newsletter when it could simply be explained to us by the presiding priest.

BobHayes
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Re: Malurgy

Post by BobHayes »

Nick Baty wrote:presiding priest.


Who he?
Bob

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Nick Baty
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Re: Malurgy

Post by Nick Baty »

The priest who presides?

alan29
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Re: Malurgy

Post by alan29 »

There's more than one kind of literacy as I was reminded on Sunday during that wonderful passage from Hebrews - the words were all there, and in the correct order ......... but when was it exactly that readers started to land on prepositions like Dumbo on a three legged stool?

BobHayes
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Re: Malurgy

Post by BobHayes »

Nick Baty wrote:The priest who presides?



Sorry Nick, flippancy getting hold of me. Of course I knew who you meant. 'Presiding priest' is one of those phrases that - to me at least - seems to reduce the position of priest to the status of 'job', bereft of any spiritual element.

As to the best way of ensuring parishioners 'get the message', I still say there is no reason to hijack the Mass with a presentation before the Concluding Rites.
Bob

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Nick Baty
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Re: Malurgy

Post by Nick Baty »

So how/when/where do you explain the restructuring of the pastoral area, the merging of the parish with its neighbours, the new structure of the rites of initiation, the commissioning of lay funeral ministers etc? When do you invite people to join the bereavement team, the outreach project for sex workers, the soup kitchen? How else do you let people know what is going on in this living, breathing community?

alan29
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Re: Malurgy

Post by alan29 »

Nick Baty wrote:So how/when/where do you explain the restructuring of the pastoral area, the merging of the parish with its neighbours, the new structure of the rites of initiation, the commissioning of lay funeral ministers etc? When do you invite people to join the bereavement team, the outreach project for sex workers, the soup kitchen? How else do you let people know what is going on in this living, breathing community?

...... and of course getting them involved at some level is one of the characteristics of liturgy that marks it out from performance.

Southern Comfort
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Re: Malurgy

Post by Southern Comfort »

Nick Baty wrote:So how/when/where do you explain the restructuring of the pastoral area, the merging of the parish with its neighbours, the new structure of the rites of initiation, the commissioning of lay funeral ministers etc? When do you invite people to join the bereavement team, the outreach project for sex workers, the soup kitchen? How else do you let people know what is going on in this living, breathing community?


Precisely. We are being sent out to do something. What happens at this point in the rite is concerned with the life of the community.

Unfortunately the authors of GIRM have no experience of pastoral realities, because all the indications are that they do not really think the rite should be interrupted by announcements. Thus para 90 somewhat tersely says:

To the Concluding Rites belong the following:

a) brief announcements, should they be necessary


However para 166 appears a little more realistic:

When the Prayer after Communion is concluded, brief announcements should be made to the people, if there are any.


(presumably meaning "if there are any announcements", not "if there are any people" !)

And here is para 184:

Once the Prayer after Communion has been said, the Deacon makes brief announcements to the people, if indeed any need to be made, unless the Priest prefers to do this himself.


And while we're on the subject of pastoral insensitivity, I wonder how many clergy have noticed this appalling para in GIRM?

382. At Funeral Masses there should usually be a short Homily, but to the exclusion of a funeral eulogy of any kind.


One wants to assume that they actually mean that a eulogy should not replace the homily, but the phraseology makes one fear that they actually do not want a eulogy at all, ever.

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