Malurgy

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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johnquinn39
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Malurgy

Post by johnquinn39 »

This is a new term I have invented -- the equivalent of Malware.

I suppose this has always been with us, but it seems to have made
a huge comeback in recent years with the instillation of:


-- Unhelpful translation policies and translations -- altar rails -- tabernacles on the main altar -- truly awful music (okay, some of the 'folk' stuff of yesteryear was bad, but this current trend for pseudo plainsong and pastiche polyphony beggars belief) -- Tridentine / EF masses -- silly hats (are they called manacles?) -- cappa magnas -- people with unbelievably ignorant ideas ...

How long will we have to wait for the above to go out of fasion?

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musicus
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Re: Malurgy

Post by musicus »

I have certainly encountered a little more chant & polyphony, but real, not pseudo or pastiche. Parishes are probably no more capable of singing them well this year than they were last (alas), and those that are able to do justice to them tend to sing the real thing. What are these cod chants etc that you have encountered. Examples, please.

As to its various rites, the Church is quite clear (in Sacrosanctum Concilium) that they are all equally valid - and that includes the EF. They may not all be equally appropriate in a given pastoral situation, or they may not all be to your personal taste (or mine), but that in no way invalidates them.
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johnquinn39
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Re: Malurgy

Post by johnquinn39 »

musicus wrote:I. Examples, please.



This sort of thing: -- http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/#1 ... 9573815432

JW
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Re: Malurgy

Post by JW »

I'm going to stick my neck out here. I think one of the problems in the Church today is that we are forever being told what we can't do. So I don't think it is particularly helpful to describe the EF or the new translation as "malurgy" - whether or not we agree with them. And I don't see how the web link provided is a site for poor liturgy. As Catholics, we are about love ("love God and love your neighbour") and about freedom ("the truth will set you free").

People have always been different and different people have always worshipped in different ways (going back forever - Jesus neatly sidestepped the Samaritan Woman's question about the best way to worship). I believe the reintroduction of the EF and the introduction of the Ordinariate were, in part, recognition of the value of this diversity in worship - and we must hope that freedom to worship in different ways may be extended in other directions too.

Questionable liturgy will occur whatever form of the Mass you celebrate; I remember EF masses that lasted 15 minutes and I have problems today with the continuing desire of people to exit the church while Mass is still going on. Part of the reason for the reform in the mid 20th Century was the desire to involve the people in what was going on at the Sacrifice of the Mass, instead of silently reciting their rosary during Mass. If people want to parade in certain vestments and headwear (if they're bishops it's called a mitre - and few seem to object to that; if a priest, it's a biretta: maniples are worn on the arm), then, so long as there are people who wish to worship in that way what is the harm? The harm comes when people say that is the only correct way to worship - that will only alienate those who disagree with them.

So let us continue the impetus that Vatican 2 provided 50 years ago - to continually re-examine who we are in the light of the Gospel, to search for the truth, opening our minds to the Spirit wherever he/she is to be found and to love those who are different.
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Re: Malurgy

Post by Peter Jones »

JW wrote:The harm comes when people say that is the only correct way to worship ......
Indeed.
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Nick Baty
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Re: Malurgy

Post by Nick Baty »

JW wrote:...so long as there are people who wish to worship in that way what is the harm? The harm comes when people say that is the only correct way to worship.
But why does a particular style of worship attract those who lean to the right? I know one EF priest – probably more – who is openly Thatcherite. And I find that a tad scary.

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Re: Malurgy

Post by Dom Perignon »

Nick, please leave the politics out and stick to the liturgy. It is not helpful, or even particularly relevant, and you are generalising a bit. I know plenty of Catholic priests and laity who would see many good things in Mrs Thatcher's politics but have little or no time for EF worship, and I know plenty of rabid anti-Thatcher priests and lay people who would like to see more of the EF.
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Nick Baty
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Re: Malurgy

Post by Nick Baty »

I have filed a complaint about DP's post.

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Re: Malurgy

Post by Peter Jones »

Nick Baty wrote:
JW wrote:But why does a particular style of worship attract those who lean to the right?


There are orthodox (leaning to the right) Catholics whose preferred style of worship is that of the Charismatic renewal. That I choose to celebrate in my native tongue does not mean I must be an easygoing liberal. I'm sticking to liturgy, by the way. To suggest that liturgical preferences reflect civil political preferences is a non-starter for me.
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Re: Malurgy

Post by musicus »

I have now processed Nick's complaint about the moderation of his earlier post (see above) and sent him a PM which concluded "As a fellow-moderator, I don't have the authority to overrule DP, but I can disagree with him. I see nothing in your post that contravenes the forum rules, so I would not have penned his first two sentences. The rest is a perfectly reasonable comment."
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musicus
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Re: Malurgy

Post by musicus »

Peter Jones wrote:
Nick Baty wrote:
JW wrote:But why does a particular style of worship attract those who lean to the right?

There are orthodox (leaning to the right) Catholics whose preferred style of worship is that of the Charismatic renewal. That I choose to celebrate in my native tongue does not mean I must be an easygoing liberal. I'm sticking to liturgy, by the way. To suggest that liturgical preferences reflect civil political preferences is a non-starter for me.

I think your quotes are muddled. It was Nick who said that, not JW.
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alan29
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Re: Malurgy

Post by alan29 »

For what its worth ..... different people are naturally drawn to different styles of worship. It has taken me a while to get my head around the idea that there is a place for styles that don't attract me personally and that the church is broad enough to embrace them all.
I hit a brick wall however when I see one section's preoccupations being foisted on the rest of us. If people want to celebrate using the EF, that's just fine. If they want to take on the approach of 1950s High Anglicans with smells and bells and cod-chant mangled into English, that's fine too, though it leaves me completely puzzled. Just so long as those notions are not held up as some sort of a model to which we all have to aspire. And just so long as the idea doesn't get around that worship is the same thing as legalism.

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Re: Malurgy

Post by Peter Jones »

musicus wrote:I think your quotes are muddled. It was Nick who said that, not JW.


I admit to being in a muddle - apologies.
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Peter Jones
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Re: Malurgy

Post by Peter Jones »

alan29 wrote: ..... different people are naturally drawn to different styles of worship.


As they are to different styles of spirituality.

I would add the caveat though that whatever the style, an occasional examination of conscience might be a salutary exercise - who or what is the subject of the worship - Almighty God or the style in itself? (There are some recent Papal comments about divisions over styles .... not to hand though.)
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alan29
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Re: Malurgy

Post by alan29 »

Peter Jones wrote:
alan29 wrote: ..... different people are naturally drawn to different styles of worship.


As they are to different styles of spirituality.

I would add the caveat though that whatever the style, an occasional examination of conscience might be a salutary exercise - who or what is the subject of the worship - Almighty God or the style in itself? (There are some recent Papal comments about divisions over styles .... not to hand though.)


Yes I would agree with your caveat. Worship is only the means to an end ........... am I allowed to say that out loud on this board? :lol:
And yes, ploughing a narrow furrow can get very inward looking - and that has to be the most basic enemy of what worship is meant to achieve.

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