Collaboration and Communication

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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Tsume Tsuyu
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Post by Tsume Tsuyu »

Merseysider wrote:Yes, it is all about collaboration and communication – but it's also about listening. And, perhaps most importantly, about building relationships.

I agree. And listening is as much a part of communication as talking is, if not more. Was it Vox who talked about having two ears and one mouth? We need to listen twice as much as we speak. But listening is one thing. What we do with what we learn by listening is another. Two of your assembly may not have liked Chris Walker's Sanctus, but were they representative? You say that, on reflection, it wasn't going as well as other settings, so perhaps they were, but how do you know? Do we jump to please one person who says they dislike our use of the African drum in church, or do we listen to another two people who love it? On what basis would the MD make his/her decision then? The assembly's response is important, of course it is, but that response may not come from their mouths – they may be actively participating in their hearts, without opening their mouths. This is not what is envisaged, I know, but it may be what is happening nonetheless. In our parish, we are trying to undo years of 'them and us'. The choir sang everything and the congregation were allowed to join in with the hymns – and they did because they were the hymns they'd grown up with. The main choir (we have two) still operates like that whilst we, the alternative choir, try desperately to invite and include the congregation, whilst also choosing songs which truly support and enhance the liturgy – hence fewer trad. hymns. We are less popular, I think, despite the fact that we welcome the contribution and involvement of the assembly. I say we are less popular; we are with those who sing, but with those who prefer to listen (and there are lots), we have made a big impact in our parish.

Don't get me wrong; I should love to hear everyone singing along to everything. There is nothing more uplifting than a swell of voices in song, in praise to God. But just because everyone doesn't join in doesn't necessarily mean we are failing in our ministry, does it?

I agree with what you say about planning, and working together. And it is sad that our priest chooses not to be involved, but that is his prerogative. He is supportive and, I know, would say if he objected to anything; he is happy to leave it in our hands. I'd rather that than work with a difficult priest, as I have in the past. I'm not sure that your remarks about giving up are that defeatist, as Dot suggests. There does come a point where you grow weary of constantly butting heads with someone over the same issues. This is something I've experienced in my working life and the eventual answer for me was to walk away. I'm not sure that is defeatist. If one has tried, and failed, that's different from not trying.

It sounds like you are doing a grand job and having a really positive impact in your church, M. I'd love to come and visit sometime!

TT
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Vox Americana
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Post by Vox Americana »

Merseysider wrote:be yourself... It's about communication skills... a question of looking, learning and listening

And at the end of the day only you can learn how you can engage the people, Dot. I've found along the way that you need to show the assembly what you can offer to them. But you also have to figure what turns them on and then plan a strategy to get them to share whatever vision of a singing Church you and your pastoral co-workers have.

If the people are repertoire-challenged, why not put on social events that include a song or two for them to join in with? When they can see you letting your hair down and not being the 'serious' musician they think you are when your ministry is cantor (or lector, or...) but are human and enjoy fun, folks warm to you and always give you the benefit of the doubt when you're cajouling them to learn something new. That rapport, that relationship is vital, cos if folks plain don't like your manner, you're on a three-legged mule in the Kentucky Derby. It helps too if the pastor comes out and joins in any pre-mass rehearsal. I've leaned that when Father X is interested, so are the people; when he isn't, neither are they.

Just like Merseysider, I use stuff more than once when it's new so as it gains familiarity. And maybe your assembly needs to be given permission to sing - heck, I know folks who were told at school that they just plain couldn't. Yet they're quite capable to hold a tune, with a little encouragement, a stronger voice besides them and it is sure more prayer-filled than some professional choirs I've heard sing. They just needed to be told they were allowed to.

But is a singing assembly what we're aiming for? How many of you guys use silence as an effective means of fostering prayerfulness? And is it possible, picking up Benevenio's quote from St Paul, that some have the gift of singing whle others have the gift of listening? 'Active' participation ain't just singing, but is deeper than that. Remember: two ears, one mouth...
Dot
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Post by Dot »

Heaps of pragmatic advice in plain English: we must be on a different network from the Marian thread.

I do so agree with the listening thing - harder to gauge as a response (possibly only by people responding afterwards) but equally valid as a form of conscious engagement, stopping short of calling it active participation. It has implications on how we choose our music, like including the occasional bit of 16th century polyphony with a good liturgical text. But I'm so used to having the latter labelled as performance liturgy, so the search continues for the all-inclusive Eucharistic Accs etc. because of what the documents say.........

Quite often the invitation to sing, however gently made, seems like an intrusion on a not particularly quiet and prayerful gathering just before Mass. Strolling up and down and making eye contact - I think that would make people cower!

Social sing-songs: done that, getting leg-pulled for not including Kylie Minogue numbers, and some nice reactions too.

And at the end of the day only you can learn how you can engage the people, Dot. I've found along the way that you need to show the assembly what you can offer to them. But you also have to figure what turns them on and then plan a strategy to get them to share whatever vision of a singing Church you and your pastoral co-workers have.

Even if I'm the person standing up there beforehand, it's what we as a group decide we want them to share/learn, and the way we support them with our own voices and instruments during the service that matters more. It's more "us" than "me".

I'm keen to be a little more adventurous in that slot, to try a new approach. Not an enviable task in our parish, but I don't want to walk away from it. I wonder what they'd make of Chris Walker exhorting them to sing?

BTW - from my own experience, I've always found walking away a defeatist exercise.

Thanks for the advice, all.

Dot
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Benevenio
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Post by Benevenio »

dot wrote:including Kylie Minogue numbers

I should be so lucky...
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presbyter
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Post by presbyter »

Dot wrote:.......... like including the occasional bit of 16th century polyphony with a good liturgical text. But I'm so used to having the latter labelled as performance liturgy, so the search continues for the all-inclusive Eucharistic Accs etc. because of what the documents say.........



Look, I'm sorry and I don't mean to be rude - and I know I've done this to Benevenio recently too ............ and I also know this is not a seminary tutorial ........... but please folks, if we are going to use phrases such as "what the documents say" can we please, please give the reference ......... because if we bother to read the documents, we might find that they say something completely different to what we think they say. Sorry Dot but I don't know what you are talking about above.
Merseysider
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Post by Merseysider »

Accidental post – perhaps Admin could remove
Last edited by Merseysider on Thu Aug 26, 2004 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Merseysider
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Post by Merseysider »

Vox Americana wrote:I know folks who were told at school that they just plain couldn't. Yet they're quite capable to hold a tune, with a little encouragement, a stronger voice besides them and it is sure more prayer-filled than some professional choirs I've heard sing. They just needed to be told they were allowed to.


Hear! Hear!
Merseysider
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Post by Merseysider »

Tsume Tsuyu wrote:I'd love to come and visit sometime!TT

You'd be welcome anytime.
Merseysider
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Post by Merseysider »

Dot wrote: Quite often the invitation to sing, however gently made, seems like an intrusion on a not particularly quiet and prayerful gathering just before Mass. Strolling up and down and making eye contact - I think that would make people cower!Dot


Depends how you do it. Can you smile covinvingly. Years ago I'd have tried to do this from up front with a mic. Not now. Perhaps it was my years as a teacher, learning how to enthuse the most unwilling pupil. The correct sort of eye contact lets people know that you're human, that you're talking to them too, that you're inviting them, that you're not some sort of pro "up front" but a part of the worshipping community.
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Gwyn
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Post by Gwyn »

"If God has blessed you with a lousy singing voice . . .
Make sure he has to listen to it." :wink:

(Ernest Sands)
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Benevenio
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Post by Benevenio »

also expressed as:

If God has given you a great voice, now is the time to use it to praise him;
and if he hasn't, now is the time to get your own back...


Interesting as this discussion is, rather than concentrate on the specific digression of how to get an assembly to sing, and pre-mass preparation, can we gently steer ourselves back to the original topic - collaboration and communication? The other could be split into its own topic, if you want to carry on that thread of thought.

Where communication and collaboration fall down is in the human. Thinking about it, God's collaboration with us should be our model, shouldn't it? God's unending love, ultimately shown in the death of Christ and in his resurrection... but if we choose not to listen, to collaborate with God's purpose... God doesn't need to love us, didn't need to send his son. He could just have destroyed and started again. But didn't. And yet, in trying to communicate, even then God was ignored by his chosen people. Not God's fault, but ours. And, I think, that reflects into our relationships in parishes too - if you think communication has broken down and collaboration lacking, it might just be you as much as the next person who is at fault. But we should react not by throwing our toys out of the pram or walking away, but by gently working in the background to build and affirm other and not self.

God grant me what I still require
that I, in others, might inspire
the hidden hope, the deep desire
to love and follow Jesus.

(John Bell, Were I the perfect Child of God, 2004, from the collection I will not sing alone)
Benevenio.
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Canonico
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Post by Canonico »

Benevenio wrote:But we should react not by throwing our toys out of the pram or walking away, but by gently working in the background to build and affirm other and not self.

Couldn't agree more Benevenio. That's probably what we mean when we use the word 'family' to describe 'church'. Too many people try to choose a comfortable place to reside rather than stick at it through thick and thin. You can choose your friends, but not your family. Our family can often challenge and form us better than the people we choose to be with out of personal preference or just plain comfort.[/u]
Gabriel
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Post by Gabriel »

Benevenio wrote:Interesting as this discussion is, rather than concentrate on the specific digression of how to get an assembly to sing, and pre-mass preparation, can we gently steer ourselves back to the original topic - collaboration and communication? The other could be split into its own topic, if you want to carry on that thread of thought.


I am not sure the 'digression' has been off-topic. It seems to me to have illustrated some of the issues quite well. The discussion itself was collaborative - 'How do we best do this?', 'This is what I do, what do you think?' A spirit of collaboration identifies a common purpose, recognises that there are different approaches to it, it affirms people for the skills that they have and the trust that has been places on them but welcomes all so we can move forward together. The 'yah-boo-sucks' school of discussion which might characterise some of the earlier contributions, where argument seems to have greater value than resolution some might see as a particularly masculine approach (?).

Good collaboration is open to communication at all levels - so how you communicate with the assembly and how they can communicate with you is important. But I do wonder what the purpose of rehearsing of the assembly before Mass is perceived to be about? Is it 'we want you to join in our music' or 'this is to help us particpate today'. Now the first is perhaps a caricature but the latter throws up questions to such as often an implication that the only way we participate is through music - how else might be helped to participate today?

Gabriel
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Benevenio
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Post by Benevenio »

gabriel wrote:an implication that the only way we participate is through music - how else might be helped to participate today?

You have just encapsulated that which I failed adequately to express in asking to move back to a more general discussion of the topic.
Thank-you.
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Tsume Tsuyu
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Post by Tsume Tsuyu »

Benevenio wrote:But we should react not by throwing our toys out of the pram or walking away, but by gently working in the background to build and affirm other and not self.

I agree with the sentiment, and I certainly don't advocate throwing one's toys out of the pram but, sometimes, when you feel you've done everything you can to build and affirm the other and you continue to meet hostility, there must come a point where you walk away, metaphorically speaking, or even literally. Perhaps that reflects a weakness in me. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't keep praying about it, but I couldn't, mentally, cope with a situation like that. On the other hand, if I simply felt that no progress was being made, but there was no obvious negativity, then I'd probably keep trying to build and affirm. Does this make sense? I seem to have tied myself in knots! :?

Gabriel wrote:But I do wonder what the purpose of rehearsing of the assembly before Mass is perceived to be about?

When we rehearse the assembly, I've always believed we were inviting them to participate, telling them it's all right to join in with the singing (particularly in our church where it's not been encouraged in the past) and, on a practical level, helping them to learn new pieces. An invitation to help us to participate? Yes, although I hadn't quite thought of it in those terms so thank you for that, Gabriel. And you are right too, participation doesn't only come through music, but through prayer and through serving one another.

TT
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