More from Mgr Wadsworth

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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Peter Jones
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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

Post by Peter Jones »

JW wrote: To quote the Iraq war protestors, "Not in my name!" I shan't be attending!


Oh it will be well worth attending to see how he copes with an audience that is firstly informed about the liturgy documents - secondly, that is not necessarily composed of like-minded people - thirdly, that will also have read Benedict XVI's books on the liturgy (and critiques of these) - and fourthly, who are engaged at the coal face of the Church in pastoral liturgy. It is not discourteous to engage a speaker in debate.
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Peter Jones
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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

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Any opinions expressed are my own, not those of the Archdiocese of Birmingham Liturgy Commission, Church Music Committee.
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musicus
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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

Post by musicus »

Could an SSG Trustee please confirm (or otherwise) that Mgr Wadsworth has, in fact, been invited to deliver the Crichton Lecture this year?
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justMary
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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

Post by justMary »

There is a lot to be disagreed with in the good Mgr's article. :D

The first point "The entire liturgy had a ‘performance' quality to it, with the assembly as the principal focus. This was borne out by the fact that musical items were frequently greeted with applause." is interesting, and I even find myself agreeing :oops: .

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool child of VII: I don't even remember the Latin Mass, loathe organ music in church, believe that active, full and conscious participation means observable participation (ie not just listening) etc.

But even I find the Irish propensity the clap during/after liturgy disturbing. They tell me that it's simply they expressing joy and agreement with the message ... but it just feels so wrong, maybe because it is exactly the same behaviour as at a show.



.... And I can assure him that the majority of those present would not have known the chants.

MaryR
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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

Post by MaryR »

musicus wrote:Could an SSG Trustee please confirm (or otherwise) that Mgr Wadsworth has, in fact, been invited to deliver the Crichton Lecture this year?

Msgr Wadsworth has indeed been invited to give the James Crichton Memorial Lecture at our Conference this year. The title of his lecture has yet to be confirmed. Msgr Wadsworth is fully briefed on the the Society and its objects. I don't anticipate that he will temper his views on certain things but I, for one, would agree with a great deal of what he says about the need for good, worthy liturgy. I anticipate a frank exchange of views and lively discussion following the lecture.

Full details of the Conference will be posted shortly. It will take place at the Cathedral Church of Ss Peter and Paul, Clifton, Bristol and will include a workshop, led by Fr Michael McAndrew on 'The Word of God in Advent'. This year, we are encouraging delegates to arrive on Friday evening when a guided tour of the Cathedral and talk on its history will take place, followed by dinner. The dates for your diaries are 9th and 10th November. I hope that you'll all come along and take advantage of this opportunity to hear Msgr Wadsworth in person, and to take part in the discussion
Mary

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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

Post by musicus »

Thank you, Mary.
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contrabordun
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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

Post by contrabordun »

justMary wrote:I'm a dyed-in-the-wool child of VII: [....], loathe organ music in church

Ouch. That must be tough...I mean, if you were only a cafeteria child of VII you could just pick and choose, but presumably a dyed-in-the-wool child of VII doesn't have that option...and as we all know...
Sacrosanctum Concilium wrote:120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things.

:twisted:
Maybe you could settle for holding the organ itself in high esteem while just hoping it never gets used? (Or maybe you've just never heard it played well? Sadly, that's all too likely.)
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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

Post by alan29 »

Am I alone in finding his "performance" comment deeply ironic, coming from one who advocates a situation where the people are silent watchers of and listeners to something that others do on their behalf?
That observation boggled my mind so much that I couldn't continue.

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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

Post by Southern Comfort »

MaryR wrote:
musicus wrote:Could an SSG Trustee please confirm (or otherwise) that Mgr Wadsworth has, in fact, been invited to deliver the Crichton Lecture this year?

Msgr Wadsworth has indeed been invited to give the James Crichton Memorial Lecture at our Conference this year. The title of his lecture has yet to be confirmed. Msgr Wadsworth is fully briefed on the the Society and its objects. I don't anticipate that he will temper his views on certain things but I, for one, would agree with a great deal of what he says about the need for good, worthy liturgy. I anticipate a frank exchange of views and lively discussion following the lecture.

Full details of the Conference will be posted shortly. It will take place at the Cathedral Church of Ss Peter and Paul, Clifton, Bristol and will include a workshop, led by Fr Michael McAndrew on 'The Word of God in Advent'. This year, we are encouraging delegates to arrive on Friday evening when a guided tour of the Cathedral and talk on its history will take place, followed by dinner. The dates for your diaries are 9th and 10th November. I hope that you'll all come along and take advantage of this opportunity to hear Msgr Wadsworth in person, and to take part in the discussion


I think this is a mistake. It's all very well hoping that people will come along and engage in discussion, but the vast majority of people won't in fact be there to hear it. For them, it will look as if the SSG is endorsing Mgr Wadsworth's ideas, publicly visible as they are elsewhere on the internet, even though this is actually far from the case, I think.

If this were to be an open discussion in another forum, there would be no problem; but given that this is the J D Crichton memorial lecture, one would expect each lecturer's contribution to be broadly in line with Crichton's own scholarship and the vision which he worked for during his long and distinguished life.

It's the same case as the Alcuin Reid paper in the SSG's journal Music and Liturgy a couple of years ago, which gave completely the wrong message. A significant number of people thought that the Society had gone bonkers by giving a platform to Reid's bizarre views, divergent as they are from the Society's own aims and sense of direction. Others assumed that the Society endorsed what Reid thinks. The signals were very confusing, and will be again in the case we are discussing.

There is certainly a place for debate and discussion on the points that Mgr Wadsworth will doubtless raise, but I would suggest that the Society's AGM and Crichton Memorial Lecture are not an appropriate context for this and would encourage the Trustees to rethink this course of action.

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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

Post by NorthernTenor »

Given the well-known thing about SC I'm not allowed to mention, this is a quite remarkable public statement. There's nout so ultamontane as the elbows of a disgruntled liberal.
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musicus
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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

Post by musicus »

Let's address the debate and not the person, please.
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Peter Jones
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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

Post by Peter Jones »

musicus wrote:Let's address the debate and not the person, please.


But it might be useful to glimpse the world the person has inhabited, don't you think?

St James', Spanish Place

(See how much this parish spends on music - and housekeeping, come to that - here:
http://www.sjrcc.org.uk/page4/files/accounts2010.pdf)

and then, pre-ICEL, RC Chaplain to Harrow School - where he also taught languages.
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nazard
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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

Post by nazard »

Interesting that the accounts have an item for "organ refurbishment" even though there is nothing against it for either year. Even more interesting is that there is no entry for organ tuning and maintenance. They do spend more on the choir than our parish's income. I shall have to try to hear them if I can ever be bothered to drag myself off to London again, provided that they promise not to play their untuned organ, of course.

nazard
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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

Post by nazard »

contrabordun wrote:...
Sacrosanctum Concilium wrote:120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things.

...


Be careful with that quote. Although it is in every copy of Sancrosanctum Concilium that I have ever seen, some of those in tune with the spirit of V2 accuse me of having inserted that particular clause myself.

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contrabordun
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Re: More from Mgr Wadsworth

Post by contrabordun »

I think we can certainly agree that it won't add much splendor to anything if it hasn't been tuned.
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