Liturgical Tourism

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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justMary
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:53 pm
Parish / Diocese: Republic of Ireland

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by justMary » Fri May 20, 2016 12:58 pm

organist wrote: Also the first time I have seen a transgender at Mass


How can you know it was the first time?

organist
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Parish / Diocese: Westminster cathedral
Location: London
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by organist » Fri May 20, 2016 8:44 pm

Well of course I can't but in this case the person concerned was clearly so and no problem with it either! :D All are welcome!

alan29
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Location: Wirral

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 » Sun May 22, 2016 4:07 pm

West country. A priest sporting a very long pony tail - right down his back. It was a good sign of the packed family mass that followed. A singing congregation and an organist playing an electronic organ manualiter molto con echo. Hymn sandwich plus sung ordinary. Psalm said, though. For some reason this Trinity Sunday solemnity ended with 6 verses of the Lourdes hymn. This is the second week running that our travels have seen us singing Marian hymns on major solemnities.
The homily was about the patristic notion of the Trinity united in a cosmic dance. To set the scene he invited the children out and attempted to teach them the hand-jive. Much hilarity. The penitential rite and sanctus were accompanied with hand gestures that all joined in with - praying and praising with the body.
At one point a baby started to cry and the mother calmly got on with breast-feeding - which got me pondering the way that mother church nurtures her children in the eucharist - an unexpected sacramental, if you like.
A joyful worshipping community, a real tonic.
Incense like last weeks place and lots of candles, not just the two on the altar. A very active parish where the laity had learned to take up the reins due to a rather erratic supply of priests.
I'm starting to wonder if we at home are unusual in having no incense and no marian hymns at mass - unless its her feast day of course. New curate from the English College has dropped the Hail Mary in the bidding prayers ....... not in the book, you see. Hardly anyone noticed. :shock:

Hare
Posts: 572
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Hare » Mon May 23, 2016 4:36 pm

The question of Marian hymns at mass is a thorny issue. The main problem I find is that for many Catholics, there are two additional liturgical seasons - viz. "May" and "October"! In our parish, I try to be sensitive to this by being as "topical" as possible. For example, in May "Regina Caeli" is apt for the Easter season; "Sing we of the blessed Mother" has a verse about the coming of the Holy Spirit - good for Pentecost and/or the week before. Yesterday, we had "Hail, Queen of heaven" as there is specific reference to the rinity in the last verse.

High Peak
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Parish / Diocese: Diocese of Nottingham
Location: Derbyshire

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by High Peak » Mon May 23, 2016 4:55 pm

You are more accommodating than I am. I offered our PP the singing of the seasonal Marian antiphon at the end of Mass, which he declined. So our nod to May/October is restricted to the saying of the "Hail Holy Queen" or "Memorare" instead of the Hail Mary.

Peter
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Peter » Mon May 30, 2016 10:07 am

My current bout of liturgical tourism started yesterday with a few hours between trains in Prague. The Czech Republic is reputedly the most atheist country in Europe and many of Prague's fine baroque churches seem to be used mainly as museums or concert halls, so I considered myself blessed to come across a church early in my wanderings where Mass in Czech was just finishing and one in Slovak due to follow shortly, so I returned in time for that.

Nearly everything was sung, chanted prayers and responses, fairly simple settings of the Gloria and Sanctus with a Slavonic tinge to the music, and the fairly large congregation joined in well. The Psalm and Gospel Acclamation were sung by a cantor who emerged from the congregation and then left after singing his bits, which I found rather odd.

Hymn numbers were projected onto the wall for the opening, offertory and postcommunion hymns but it was a while before I worked out which book they referred to and when I did find it there was no music. However, they were fairly short and felt of a piece with the other liturgical music.

The sermon was short, Communion was distributed under one kind only and the Mass concluded after about three quarters of an hour with a violuntary in the form of the famous D minor Toccata by Bach without the fugue.

In my research before going I had identified another church where Mass in English was available, but it's as well I settled for Slovak as the one with the English Mass turned out to be as inaccessible as Kafka's Castle: it was on a very high hill and I couldn't find it even after the climb!

oopsorganist
Posts: 739
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Location: Leeds

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by oopsorganist » Mon May 30, 2016 11:58 pm

Mass in the South West yesterday: Music sheet handed out.
Hymns:
Guide me, o thou great Redeemer, Lord Accept the Gifts we offer, Of the Glorious Body Telling.
Missa Trahe me post te. (sung by choir - beautiful Kyrie but I missed the rest.....
Gloria in Latin (unfamiliar to me and sung by choir - seemed quite a long one)
Eucharistic Acclamation words and notation on the music (list) hand out. But no Mass sheet as such for the mass unless I missed it but I don't think I did. Very good and excellent choir of 12 at least and organ for the first hymn. The difference in time between the organ at the back of the church and the choir at the front made singing the first hymn impossible.
Chanted psalm.
Chanted Sequence. In Latin. In full. Sung by three men in suits. They lost it a bit towards the end seeming to lose force and confidence. It did go on a long long time. The presiding priest stood framed in an arch of the altar screen during this for all the world like someone coming out of a cuckoo clock.
Well I am sure they were all very happy and certainly, the plate seems to be full here. A good earner. A parish of well heeled and possibly well educated, possibly powerful people and lots of affluent tourists too. I could understand why Bread for the World might not be their kind of thing.
I was staying with relations and they declared that I had gone to a High Anglican church - so I doubted myself but I have just checked and it was a RC church. Takes all sorts to make a world.
I did like the Kyrie but I found myself feeling very alienated and lost - so my feet left and I had to go with them. Just snuck out through a door at the side. It wasn't a conscious decision. It was an emotional response.
I have just seen on their website that there was a Polish Mass afterwards. I should have gone to that. I would have felt more at home. If I could have got to another Mass in the area in time I would have gone there as my intention was to attend Mass but really. I just don't fit it some places.
I chuntered to my lapsed relatives about Vatican 2, they said "What's that" so I asked Mr Oops if he knew what it was, and he said he though it was something to do with a Pope John but he was looking in the fridge at the time. And we left it there.
Oh and there was to be a Communion Motet. O sacrum Convivium: Francisco Guerrero probably very beautiful.
uh oh!

organist
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by organist » Tue May 31, 2016 5:27 am

oopsorganist I expect I would have loved some of it! They actually sang the Sequence - wow! I loved the comment about the cuckoo clock.
I endured the choir rehearsal on Saturday for the consecration of our new bishop which happens today. I did find it irritating that the music booklet called it "the ordination" and the composers were not given. The hymn tunes not printed either - why? Some of the Diocesan choir cannot read music but lots can. For the first time some of the youngsters from the Cathedral choir are singing with us. It remains to be seen if the organ will be used. :(
As a tenor I find the attitude towards harmony puzzling. Why some items in harmony and others not? Some tunes are just too low for me. I consider myself a friendly person with a happy smile but this choir are definitely cliquey. One man replied to me "I've not seen you before". Hardly a friendly welcome and I replied that I had sing with them in the past. A friend asked if we would sing at the Chrism mass to which I said "No, not if the rehearsals are like this". I think it is fundamental that the end time of a rehearsal should be stated. It is just self indulgent for the conductor to talk as much as he likes and repeat things without explaining why! I also think that when young people are present we need to be very careful what we say about the liturgy, bishops, etc. ! Actually we need to be careful full stop if we call ourselves Christians! :D
Oh well I expect we will enjoy it and we are going because we like the bishop to be!

Peter
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Peter » Tue May 31, 2016 4:00 pm

oopsorganist wrote:Chanted Sequence. In Latin. In full.

That reminded me that back in Blighty last Sunday was Corpus Chtisti. Mass in Prague was for the 9th Sunday, so presumably they celebrated Corpus Christi on Thursday. Knew I should have gone to Mass on Thursday before leaving England!

oopsorganist
Posts: 739
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by oopsorganist » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:48 pm

Oo Peter.

I wonder if the English Mass there would have had stuff in Latin? Interspersed with the English. Or would it all have been in English. Go back next year and let me know.
uh oh!

Peter
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:05 pm

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Peter » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:59 pm

oopsorganist wrote:Oo Peter.
I wonder if the English Mass there would have had stuff in Latin? Interspersed with the English. Or would it all have been in English. Go back next year and let me know.

As well as Mass in English advertised on the web at the Prague church I couldn't find there was also one in Latin advertised at another church I didn't look for having found my Slovak one. No idea whether the English one would have included Latin. However, what reminded it that in England Corpus Christ is transferred, whereas in the Czech Republic it isn't, is that you had a Sequence, not that it was in Latin.

This evening there was Mass for Sacred Heart in the church in Bratislava where I was about to play in a concert. Whoever told me it was to be in Hungarian was misinformed: it was clearly in Slovak, as one would have expected. Three priests concelebrated, a very fine lady cantor sang the Psalm and Gospel Acclamation and led the other singing, which included a Gloria, Offertory hymn, Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation and Our Father (oddly, not the Great Amen). The congregation stood for most of the Eucharistic Prayer except for the Consecration and the prayer immediately preceding it, i.e. as specified in our GIRM, unlike most churches I've come across in the UK apart from mine. Unfortunately I arrived late and so missed the opening hymn and Penitential Act and had to leave after the Sign of Peace to get ready for the concert, but I heard later that the Mass was followed by Adoration, which made it even longer and delayed the start of our concert, much to the disgust of our (fiercely atheist) conductor.

Southern Comfort
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Southern Comfort » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:04 pm

Peter wrote:a very fine lady cantor sang the Psalm and Gospel Acclamation and led the other singing, which included a Gloria, Offertory hymn, Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation and Our Father (oddly, not the Great Amen).


I think that might have been Sylvia Urdova. You were lucky!

oopsorganist
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Location: Leeds

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by oopsorganist » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:18 pm

This was a lovely Mass today in Yorkshire
organ, piano, flute and a small choir
Hymns. Praise my Soul the King of Heaven, Lay Your Hands Gently On Us, There is a Longing in our Hearts (Ann Quigley), SIng of the Lord's Goodness
Haugen: Mass of Creation - Gloria and Holy Holy, Lamb of God, A sung Amen.
Composed psalm led by cantor
An unfamiliar Alleluia.
It was really nice I feel refreshed.
uh oh!

Peter
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:05 pm

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Peter » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:25 pm

Having found on completing this post that I'd inadvertently sent part of it prematurely, I thought it best to delete the partial version. Apologies for any inconvenience! :oops: Correct version follows below, unless there are any more typos I've missed!
Last edited by Peter on Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Peter
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:05 pm

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Peter » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:14 pm

Last weekend I caught a Sunday morning Mass after stepping off a night train; this weekend I caught a Saturday vigil before boarding one.

Munich city centre is remarkably rich in churches (as indeed is Bratislava) with three or four plus a cathedral in close proximity. My target was the 6.30 Mass at St Peter's and I made it despite Deutsche Bahn's best efforts in delaying my train, guided at the last moment by the pealing of bells beforehand. It's a vast baroque building, with a large altar surmounted by marble columns and heavily gilded decorations and with many framed paintings and murals adorning the walls, often very high up.

There was no apparent concession to Saturday evening in terms of reduced singing (as discussed in a separate thread), only in the forces needed to celebrate it. The server read the first two readings and the priest sang the Psalm and Gospel Acclamation (with an exrta Alleluia after the Gospel) and announced the intercessions. When it was clear that the priest would be celebrating with his back to the people I wondered whether it would be EF, but the hymns were in German as were the sung Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei, all paraphrased texts sung to hymn tunes (or hymn-like tunes) with music and words given in the hymnbooks. The Kyrie from the Missa de Angelis (note, Oops, it's Greek, not Latin, so I hope it wouldn't have driven you away!) was a surprise in that each line was sung three times, not two, i.e. the way we used to do it pre-Vatican II. The Mystery of Faith and Great Amen were said.

During the Eucharistic prayer there was a mixture of kneeling and standing, though everyone knelt for the Consecration. Communion (one kind only) was distributed at the rail, with communicants mostly kneeling and receiving on the tongue, though a few, myself included, standing and receiving in the hand. During this process gentle organ music was played and once everyone was back in their places, a thanksgiving hymn was sung: positive in tone but not so strident as to break the atmosphere of quiet reflection in the way many Postcommunion hymns I've heard recently tend to do.

There was a long blessing before the dismissal - I nearly wrote "solemn" blessing, except that the words used were rather less solemn, bringing in concepts of the weather (very topical as it rained very heavily that evening), nature and human endeavour. Then, at the last minute, there was the bit of Latin Oops would have been waiting for (or not) in the form of the Salve Regina to the traditional plainchant tune. I'm not clear what it was doing there, as May is past, but at least, coming after the dismissal, it was not part of the Mass.

During the Mass I occasionally had problems hearing the words because of noises outside, including a few sirens but also bells, which made me wonder whether there was a later Mass in the area that my previous reserarch had failed to identify. Indeed there was. The Holy Spirit Church nearby holds a "Charismatic service" on the first Saturday of each month, starting at 18:00 with some sort of praise ("Lobpreis", which sounds a bit tautological to me), followed by Mass at 19:00, prayers ("Anbetung") at 20:30 and conclusion ("Schlusssegen" - the word includes a German double-S, which I can't find on the keyboard I'm using, followed by a single one). By the time I looked in, about 19:45, the sermon was nearing completion, so presumably was a long one unless they'd filled up the earlier parts of the Liturgy of the Word with elaborate singing or actions. The Intercessions were announced by a procession of readers, some talking at considerable length, and then the Offertory hymn started, with words projected onto a screen and sung to an example of what sounded like 70s music at its worst, at which point I felt I'd had enough and drifted out. It might have been interesting to see what sort of setting they had for the Sanctus, but I didn't want to get involved in another Mass part way through having just attended one in full. Other people were drifting in and out, as the doors were open presumably to encourage it in the hope that people would become interested, so no-one seemed to mind when left. Not having heard the Liturgy of the Word, I don't know whther the readings were those of the Tenth Sunday or others picked to fit the Charismatic theme of the evening.

By the way, I'm impressed by SC's knowledge of Slovak cantors!

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