Liturgical Tourism

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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keitha
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by keitha » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:29 pm

Before anyone gets any ideas...Annette and I were married in 2010! :lol: We left while the tuning was still going on. As a tuner was 'on site' and there were some tuning-type noises before the wedding on Saturday, it may be that the organ is still being tuned up having been out of action for a while.
Keith Ainsworth

oopsorganist
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by oopsorganist » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:48 pm

A long haul up the Aire Valley in brilliant sunshine past the Aldis and the Asdas, the car lots and the curry houses, the solid building that was once the Sooty Museum........

...

Missa de Angelis plus an Alleluia. Three hymns - At the Name of Jesus, When I survey, Glory be to Jesus. I think. Not sure, didn't get a hymn book, not that it was necessary. A beautiful choir piece for Communion. Choir of 12 plus. A truly gifted organist, both solo and accompanying. Some music at the end. A lorra lorra incense.

The congregation of around 300 did actually sing the Our Father with great heart.

The music production was outstanding. There was a big However, which has given me food for much thought, which is why I ended up doing a little tour of Eccelshill on the way home.
uh oh!

John Ainslie
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by John Ainslie » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:57 pm

On Sunday 6th September I was in Boppard-am-Rhein, ten miles south of Koblenz. Big German-Romanesque church, officially a minor basilica. Excellent professional organist who could really lead the congregation as well as play - on the previous day he had entertained a respectable midday crowd to a concert of French organ music from Couperin to Boellman's Suite Gothique. See http://www.konzertorganist-koblenz.de for the organist and http://www.sankt-severus.de/index.php?page=215 for the organ.

I didn't have pencil or paper to note what we sang from the new (2013 edition) Gotteslob. Not hugely impressive singing volume, but that may have been because the entire local fire service were there for their annual service and no one had thought to supply them with hymnbooks... Cantor in the west-end organ gallery but no choir.

Entrance Song, yes. Kyrie: priest cantoring, people repeat.
Gloria: G167: the standard one-verse version of Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr - the paraphrase universally sung in Germany from well before Vatican II.
Psalm sung by cantor from the west-end organ gallery, with refrain from Gotteslob
Alleluia: can't remember which - could have been the Celtic Alleluia, which has also made it into Gotteslob.
Post-Gospel song: from a 12-song parish supplement pasted in the back, after the Trier diocesan supplement (which numbers 175 hymns) - obviously a parish favourite, judging from the singing.
Creed: G178: Nicene Creed sung in German chant by cantor with everyone acclaiming 'Amen, amen, amen, wir glauben [we believe]' from time to time - very interesting and quite effective.
Offertory song
Holy holy: a paraphrase from the Trier supplement
Eucharistic Acclamation: sung unaccompanied rather half-heartedly in German chant (first response; the second and third texts appear nowhere in Gotteslob!)
Amen: chant
Lamb of God: yes
Communion Song: I think this was organ music then a hymn at the end

We felt very much at home with a liturgy well-celebrated like this.

IncenseTom
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Parish / Diocese: Diocese of Leeds

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by IncenseTom » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:59 pm

oopsorganist wrote:A long haul up the Aire Valley in brilliant sunshine past the Aldis and the Asdas, the car lots and the curry houses, the solid building that was once the Sooty Museum........

...

Missa de Angelis plus an Alleluia. Three hymns - At the Name of Jesus, When I survey, Glory be to Jesus. I think. Not sure, didn't get a hymn book, not that it was necessary. A beautiful choir piece for Communion. Choir of 12 plus. A truly gifted organist, both solo and accompanying. Some music at the end. A lorra lorra incense.

The congregation of around 300 did actually sing the Our Father with great heart.

The music production was outstanding. There was a big However, which has given me food for much thought, which is why I ended up doing a little tour of Eccelshill on the way home.


You came to St Anne's, Keighley! :D

Thank you SO much for your kind words. It really means a lot when people give you a bit of praise.
The choir piece was 'This is my Body' from 'Bread of Heaven' arranged by Heath Morber. This was the first time our choir have ever done anything 'choral' in two parts. They had worked really hard on it and we were all really chuffed with the result.
The setting of the Our Father was by Weiner which is a real favourite of the parish.
No propers this week (unusually for us!!!)
Our PP is away for a few weeks and I was delighted that our cover sang as much as the PP normally does - pretty much all of the presidential parts.

Thanks again and make sure you say 'hello' if you ever come again.

Southern Comfort
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Southern Comfort » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:30 pm

Did you notice this, Tom?

The music production was outstanding. There was a big However, which has given me food for much thought


We are all sitting here with bated breath, wondering what the Big However might be. :idea: :idea: :idea:

IncenseTom
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Parish / Diocese: Diocese of Leeds

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by IncenseTom » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:15 pm

Yes, I did notice! I'm hoping it's not too big a 'however'.

It really is lovely to have some positive feedback, but I know we're far from perfect - the 'however' could probably well be any number of things!

alan29
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Location: Wirral

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:26 pm

Lourdes, a couple of weeks ago on a weekday. Mass in the church.
Animator was very efficient/officious and a good voice. No hymn books for the people, so felt a bit lost. Good organist who seemed to be compensating for a bass-light organ by using very thick left hand chords. Somewhat over-chromatic organ solos before Mass and during the Presentation of Gifts. He/she seemed to be a bit of a stranger to rounding off phrases in a musical manner.
What is that telepathy between organist and celebrants that enables them to pitch the responses as if by magic?
Most of the ordinary was sung, plus entrance and communion hymns. Familiar Gelineau responsorial psalm. All in French, and why not?
Theological brain much exercised by the inscription over the altar - "Through Mary to Jesus." A couple of weeks later my brain is still fried by it, actually its mightily offended, and put me off the whole celebration - do they not have any eucharistic theology at all, that such an inscription should be over an altar of all places?

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VML
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by VML » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:00 pm

'Ad Jesum per Mariam,' as I wore on my badge all my school life, or 'Per Mariam ad Jesum' as it is now on the badge of St Mary's Hull, once a Marist School.
It is the Marist motto, or crest. It has been there a long time. You are talking about Lourdes: surely that is what it is all about.

alan29
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:47 am

The thing is the Mass is the supreme prayer of the Church to the Father through the Son. That is why all the prayers are addressed to the Father through the Son, and not through Mary via the Son to the Father.
What is appropriate for a school badge is not appropriate for above an altar, no matter where it is located geographically.

oopsorganist
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by oopsorganist » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:13 pm

.... however Tom
and after consideration of the fact that I would have valued some critical friend type comments, even over simple things like, is the sound coming well through the PA, because I had the hot seat so long - I had in the end no idea how the music was going. And I am no place to criticize anyway, lacking your musical gifts!

What I was interested in was the fact that your congregation did not sing. Only the "Our Father" which they rocked. And I was thinking that once a choir is commissioned, then it has the effect of decommissioning the congregation. So I was thinking about all that as I drove home the long way round. It's not just your place where this happens though. I do know that once I realized I was never ever going to have a choir or anything like that, I changed lots of things in my approach to planning and delivery.

I had just attended the previous Sunday, a Mass at another parish where the priest announced they had no musician that week so they would just attempt some unaccompanied singing which he started with "We'll attempt to sing number whatever" and the whole congregation just joined in with him, with little inhibition.

Otherwise Catholics just do like to mumble into their hymn books.

Your church does have a big problem with the aisles at Communion.

You're doing a great job. I hope your parish knows how precious you are!
uh oh!

IncenseTom
Posts: 194
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Parish / Diocese: Diocese of Leeds

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by IncenseTom » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:25 pm

Thanks again, oops - very kind. I know, there is a bit of a problem with the congregation's lack of singing. I really don't know why they love that Our Father so much - we do a pretty good mixture of styles with lots like that our Father (not all traditional all the time!) but they always seem reluctant. I'm told it has always been that way at the parish (under several different organists with different styles).
I wonder if the people who are prepared to sing are all in the choir!
I remember when we had two Masses on a Sunday - the Mass with the choir was ok and the Mass with no choir was dire. You didn't hear a peep from the congregation AT ALL during the hymns. I think if we had no choir, I can't imagine the congregation 'stepping up'.

We have a huge number of Eastern Europeans too, and although the church is pretty full, they don't sing.

Communion certainly is a scrum, but there seems no appetite for it to change!

MARYFA
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by MARYFA » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:30 pm

In another part of God's own County I can vouch for the popularity of the Weiner 'Our Father'. It is sung about twice a month at different Masses and is always rousing. The congregation are on their own for at least six out of eight weekend
Masses each month and usually make a very good sound with both hymns and Mass parts(Missal tones with Duffy/Bellahouston Gloria). On two Sundays a small choir sings the Belmont or New Celtic settings + Psalm. People seem to join in. Incidentally, as far as I know 'Thou shalt sing at Mass' is not one of the Ten Commandments or the Precepts of the Church.

blackthorn fairy
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Parish / Diocese: Our Lady of the Sacred Heart Wellingborough Northamptonshire

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by blackthorn fairy » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:55 pm

My holiday experience in Limerick a couple of weeks ago - Sunday Mass at the cathedral, with a full congregation but no organist and no choir (on holiday I was told) and no music whatsoever, so all was over in 35 minutes. Is this a record?

Ephrem Feeley
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Ephrem Feeley » Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:51 pm

blackthorn fairy wrote:Is this a record?

Probably not - most churches in Ireland, including cathedrals, will give the choir summer holidays of two or three months, with no provision for music during this time. Surely it would be very easy to sing a simple missal Alleluia, or Eucharistic Acclamations. In our own parish, we gave the choir eight weeks off - four of these were covered by just cantor and congregation, another two had cantor and organist. For each of these weeks, the congregation sang lustily throughout. Also, the 35 minutes would be considered by many in Ireland to be a long mass, as often the mark of a "great priest" is that "he says a quick mass".

John Ainslie
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by John Ainslie » Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:54 am

I feel strongly that, where a Sunday Mass is normally sung, some singing should be provided every Sunday. Music leadership is a ministry to the community, helping them to praise God. Does God take August off? I think not. In my 29 years as music leader in my parish, I made it a point of honour and faithfulness to arrange for a music leader every Sunday, and to my recollection only failed once.

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