Liturgical Tourism

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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oopsorganist
Posts: 771
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Leeds

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by oopsorganist »

Sunday, second visit, seem to be two choirs and lots of keyboard players (Great)
Missed the first hymn.

Haugen Acclamations, sung by all with good heart.
Offertory - Blessed are you Lord
Communion - Come Now the Table's Spread (Haugen again)
Final hymn - Sing of the Lord's Goodness.

Will be going again.
uh oh!

alan29
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Location: Wirral

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 »

Honfluer on Sunday.
It was in foreign so I found my mind wandering as it always seems to when not in English.
I formulated some rules for French parish music ...
1) it should be modal. Preferably dorian on D for parishes that rely on a guitar.
2) it should at all costs just shy away from a memorable phrase or strong rhythm.
3) it should be pitched a minor 3rd higher than is comfortable.
4) when accompanied by organ the instrument should have each section tuned to a slightly different tuning and should never be quieter than mf.
5) the assembly should be directed from a lectern by an over miked animateur whose right hand is used to describe mystic, flowing shapes totally unrelated to the music.
6) there should be no line of sight between the organist and the animateur, lest they arrive on a down beat at the same time.
7) where hymn books are provided the assembly should be kept in the dark as to the number of the hymn.

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Gwyn
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Gwyn »

Chortle :lol:

Southern Comfort
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Southern Comfort »

alan29 wrote:Honfluer on Sunday.
It was in foreign so I found my mind wandering as it always seems to when not in English.
I formulated some rules for French parish music ...
1) it should be modal. Preferably dorian on D for parishes that rely on a guitar.
2) it should at all costs just shy away from a memorable phrase or strong rhythm.
3) it should be pitched a minor 3rd higher than is comfortable.
4) when accompanied by organ the instrument should have each section tuned to a slightly different tuning and should never be quieter than mf.
5) the assembly should be directed from a lectern by an over miked animateur whose right hand is used to describe mystic, flowing shapes totally unrelated to the music.
6) there should be no line of sight between the organist and the animateur, lest they arrive on a down beat at the same time.
7) where hymn books are provided the assembly should be kept in the dark as to the number of the hymn.


This is all too true in my experience. Especially no. 3!

Hare
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by Hare »

Absolutely! I would add that things that should be fast should be very slow - and vice-versa!

I used to play regularly at a French church when there on holiday, until the time a young lad of about 15/16 in the congregation, who acted as Animateur at the monthly "Family Mass" decided I was playing everything too fast, and for the Communion hymn took it upon himself to go to the ambo (right by the organ) and conduct - having whispered "Trop vite, Monsieur" to me first. People only do that once!! :twisted:

alan29
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Location: Wirral

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 »

Back to Honfleur
Altar stuff done in a style I've not seen outside very High Anglican churches. Much incense with thurible swung to head height, servers candles raised at the elevation etc.
There was a 5 minute organ interlude straight after the homily which all sat and listened to. A jaunty bit of Couperin at the offertory, and Claire de Lune at communion. Clergy processed in to the noisy organ entry from Saint Saens 3rd symphony.
Took 40 minutes to get to the offertory.
I have to say it was all beautifully done, and with real gravitas.

oopsorganist
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Location: Leeds

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by oopsorganist »

Ah you tourists you.

Sunday morning in sunny Yorkshire.
Hymns: He who would valiant be (or she of course), Christ be beside me, Alleluia sing to Jesus, Freely Freely.

Acclamations: Alleliua Our Father
The priest is good at singing, he did the bits before and after the Our Father. He is capable of singing all the right bits. And leading the parish. A bit gifted, musically. In fact, since touring, I have not been to a Mass where the priest could not sing well.

The congregation usually sing in this parish, if they know the hymn well enough. There is a parishioner who sings very loudly and wildly out of tune. You get the challenge of singing plus the bonus of trying to keep in tune to the organ with this distraction. Or maybe that individual is actually demonstrating the right attitude to praising the Lord and shaming others into joining in.
uh oh!

justMary
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Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:53 pm
Parish / Diocese: Republic of Ireland

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by justMary »

oopsorganist wrote:There is a parishioner who sings very loudly and wildly out of tune. You get the challenge of singing plus the bonus of trying to keep in tune to the organ with this distraction. Or maybe that individual is actually demonstrating the right attitude to praising the Lord and shaming others into joining in.


Indeed, I find individuals like that often help the overall singing: they give other people permission to be not as bad as that. Personally, I find the best way to cope is to focus on signing a prayerfully as I can while not making eye contact with anyone else.

oopsorganist
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by oopsorganist »

This Sunday's four hymn sandwich comprised;

Christ be before me, Be still and know I am with you, The Lord's My Shepherd,(to organ or harmonium or whatever it is, and with little participation) and Colours of Day.
Sung Alleluia

When it came to Colours of Day, the older gentleman next me got agitated and started looking for a hymn book. I shared mine with him and also kindly showed him where we were up to.....he really likes that hymn!

Congregation of around 120.
uh oh!

alan29
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 »

Well, we have knocked off for the summer (don't ask me why, I have no idea.) So rather than sit in the pew while the congregation sing unaccompanied, I will be touring local parishes. Should be interesting - we church musicians find it hard to get around.

oopsorganist
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by oopsorganist »

Happy holidays alan29.
Today we had a four hymn sandwich: something to the tune of Guide me oh Thou great Redeemer, something to the the tune of When I survey (My god and is thy table set, I think), Oh Bread of Heaven and Amazing Grace.
This parish only sings Acclamations on special days I think. :(
uh oh!

High Peak
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Parish / Diocese: Diocese of Nottingham
Location: Derbyshire

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by High Peak »

Our parish also "knocks off" for the summer, ostensibly to give the likes of me a break. However, even parts of the Mass aren't sung, which is not good.
I am presently in Malaysia visiting family. Mass over here is always a bit of a culture shock. In the local parish the music group is recovering after apparently being decimated by a previous, recently-departed PP. It would appear that, over here, priests are moved on quite frequently and it is rare that one remains in situ for longer than five years.
The set up was a rather cheesy organ, a guitar and an electronic drum kit!!!! Alas, all music was played in pretty-much the same style and the organ had its own, pre-programmed bass/rhythm line that played in an "um-pah-pah" style!!! All parts of the Mass that could/should be sung were sung. The "Lord have mercy" and Gloria were modern settings that I had never heard before. At first I wasn't keen on the Gloria but by the end it began to grow on me. The Sanctus and Agnus Dei were the Missal tones (Mass XVIII) in English with the same style of accompaniment as described above!! The Psalm was sung.
All four hymns were late 20th Century - quite common over here, in my experience. The entrance hymn was "City of God" but those instrumental bars in the middle and end of each verse were omitted. Such "awkward pauses" in the congregational-participation are often omitted in these parts, I've found.
Everyone joined in with the singing but, at the risk of cultural misinterpretation, I wouldn't say that it was with much gusto or enthusiasm.
The homily was very good.

High Peak
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Parish / Diocese: Diocese of Nottingham
Location: Derbyshire

Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by High Peak »

We are still in Malaysia but, this time, we went to Mass in a different parish; a much more populous parish and located just in the outskirts of Kuala Lumpur. The music group is far more established without the recent disruption of the previous parish; plus, the greater numbers in the parish cannot but help in recruiting parishioners for various ministries. Another thing that helps is that the MD clearly has a liturgical sensitivity and has done his homework - more on this later.

The hymn sandwich was as follows:-
# "Sing a new song unto the Lord."
# "All men's labour can produce." (I am not familiar with this)
# "There is a longing"
# "Longing for light/Christ be our light" (faster than usual to reflect that it was the recessional).

Again, occurrences of sustained notes or bars without singing were curtailed or omitted entirely - it just seems to be the style out here. Also again, (and allowing for my not being familiar with the Offertory Hymn) all hymns were post-Vatican II. However, it was more nuanced than that because quiet, reflective music was played during the collection and the hymn not started until the collection was concluded. Furthermore, during the Offertory Procession was sung.......wait for it.........the Communion Antiphon with Psalm led by a cantor!!! Now, I don't get to do a great deal of liturgical tourism but, outside of Ampleforth for the Triduum, this is the only place where I have experienced this. Only after all had received (NEVER Communion under both kinds in these parts!!) did we sing "There is a longing". The singers sang a harmony to accompany most of the hymns.

There was only one instrument, so far as I could tell; a keyboard of a pretty good standard. However, for the hymns it was played with (convincing) piano sounds.

All parts of the Mass were sung (unaccompanied), as was the Psalm (keyboard playing organ-style). The parts of the Mass were ALL Missal tones - I don't care in what country or with what accent it is sung, THE MISSAL GLORIA DOES NOT WORK!!!!!!!

The homily pretty-much ignored the readings of the day - no more than passing mention was made of the Gospel and all other passages of Scripture were ignored. Instead we were treated to one of a series of lectures on the recent Papal Encyclical!!!!

It is a little strange hearing Plainchant sung in countries that do not have a tradition of Plainchant. Having said that, the churches do not lend themselves to Plainchant singing; in the modern-built churches the walls tend to be iron grills, air-vent cement blocks or something similar - all with the aim of trying to keep the congregation relatively (and, for me, unsuccessfully) cool. This was aided last night by about forty wall fans which made the place sound something akin to an aerodrome. (Travel south to Singapore and you are more likely to find a church that uses aircon!)

There were about 600 people in the Church for the Vigil Mass with another 100 our so standing outside. Apparently the three Sunday Masses are similarly full. (The Malaysian Government puts great restrictions on Christians building churches.)

As we drove home I told my brother-in-law that I was impressed by the liturgy. He proudly told me that the MD is an old school friend of his!

alan29
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by alan29 »

Do the Malays not worship in their own language?

High Peak
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Parish / Diocese: Diocese of Nottingham
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Re: Liturgical Tourism

Post by High Peak »

Ah! Here we deal with a touchy subject!!

The word "Malay" refers to members of the indigenous race; and by the law of the land a Malay HAS to be Muslim and may NOT "apostasize". A citizen of the country is a Malaysian. So, membership of the Christian community is made up of Indians and Chinese (that, basically, we Brits brought in to do the work!!".

The lion's share of church membership (if that's not an unfortunate phrase given the persecution of the Church here) is made up of Indians and most Indians in Malaysia are Tamil. As such, some of the Masses are said in Tamil.

One reason why so many attend the parish that we were at yesterday is that the government (which is Malay and positively discriminates in favour of Malays/Muslims) GREATLY restricts the building of churches.

If you don't hear from me again you can assume that the authorities are reading my posts!!! :lol:

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