Congregational singing of hymns

[mcb]

Being so young that I am frequently turned away from off-licences

(What's an off-licence, Nick? - Isn't that where people used to buy alcohol in the olden days? )

[londonchurchman]

There are a number of dynamics at work:

• The regular attendance of catholics at mass is underpinned by the Sunday obligation, which does change the cross-section of congregations
• Catholics who like to sing will (where there is a choice of parishes) tend towards parishes which sing. And vice versa
• I don't agree that catholics sang better in the 1970s - my memories are of a silent parish with occasional mealy-mouthed attempts at singing

There are many parishes where catholics sing well, and there are many silent Anglican parishes.

Where are these parishes where people sing well? I would like to be proved wrong, but after visiting about 20 parishes I am begining to lose hope!

[Hare]

There are a number of dynamics at work:

• The regular attendance of catholics at mass is underpinned by the Sunday obligation, which does change the cross-section of congregations
• Catholics who like to sing will (where there is a choice of parishes) tend towards parishes which sing. And vice versa
• I don't agree that catholics sang better in the 1970s - my memories are of a silent parish with occasional mealy-mouthed attempts at singing

There are many parishes where catholics sing well, and there are many silent Anglican parishes.

Where are these parishes where people sing well? I would like to be proved wrong, but after visiting about 20 parishes I am begining to lose hope!

St Andrew's, Tenterden, Kent TN30 6LL

[londonchurchman]

St Andrew's, Tenterden, Kent TN30 6LL

Thanks - I think it's always a good sign when a parish has a specific page dedicated to music and explains what music can be expected at the various masses. This is something which is nit as common as it should be.

[Southern Comfort]

Somebody mentioned to me Thomas Day's book "Why Catholics can't Sing" and I managed to order a copy through amazon. Whist he was an American Catholic describing the experience in the States, he contends that English speaking Catholics tend now not to sing. I just thought I would throw this in for discussion.

Don't waste your time reading it.

(a) The book is 20 years old or so.

(b) He is a small man with a big axe to grind, and the axe is a desire to elevate chant, polyphony, etc, above everything else. He is naïve enough to think that non-singing congregations can be attributed to "lousy material" being given to them, rather than the lack of a decent cantor, as is often the case. (A whole generation of American cantors were not well trained, though that is changing in the past few years.) A great deal of caricature is involved, including a lot of tilting at the game-show-host style of presiding which in fact is not often found (I think his antihero is "Father Hank").

(c) When the book was first published, the most recent piece that he pilloried in it (Marty Haugen's "Gather us in") was already the best part of a decade old — 1984 — and the remainder were even older. People wanted to know where he had been in the intervening period, which was (for example) the one when the St Thomas More Group of composers first came to prominence in the States and the character of the music sung in American Catholic churches changed considerably. His book was out-of-date before it even appeared.

(d) His experience was entirely derived from a handful of parishes on the East Coast. He elevated what he found there to the status of a universal law about how music and presiding style must be in almost every US Catholic parish. It wasn't true then, and it certainly isn't now.

If, on the other hand, you enjoy reading a book which is a sneering rant from beginning to end, then carry on!

[Nick Baty]

Was just about to post but SC has taken the words from my mouth.

[IncenseTom]

The parish where I grew up and played for a number of years used to sing really quite well and still do when I go back to visit.
The parish where I play now are far more quiet despite trying to give them a mixture of traditional and modern, well-known and new, and having a small choir to lead things. If they don't want to sing it can be so frustrating - I can remember one Sunday playing the well-known classic My Song is Love unknown at Communion (my all time favourite as mentioned elsewhere on the forum). 3 of the choir were Eucharistic ministers and I could only (barely) hear the rest of the choir singing.....and no-one else.

Having said that, any Catholic parish, anywhere, on any Sunday will always raise the roof for Hail Queen of Heaven.

[londonchurchman]

Somebody mentioned to me Thomas Day's book "Why Catholics can't Sing" and I managed to order a copy through amazon. Whist he was an American Catholic describing the experience in the States, he contends that English speaking Catholics tend now not to sing. I just thought I would throw this in for discussion.

Don't waste your time reading it.

(a) The book is 20 years old or so.

(b) He is a small man with a big axe to grind, and the axe is a desire to elevate chant, polyphony, etc, above everything else. He is naïve enough to think that non-singing congregations can be attributed to "lousy material" being given to them, rather than the lack of a decent cantor, as is often the case. (A whole generation of American cantors were not well trained, though that is changing in the past few years.) A great deal of caricature is involved, including a lot of tilting at the game-show-host style of presiding which in fact is not often found (I think his antihero is "Father Hank").

(c) When the book was first published, the most recent piece that he pilloried in it (Marty Haugen's "Gather us in") was already the best part of a decade old — 1984 — and the remainder were even older. People wanted to know where he had been in the intervening period, which was (for example) the one when the St Thomas More Group of composers first came to prominence in the States and the character of the music sung in American Catholic churches changed considerably. His book was out-of-date before it even appeared.

(d) His experience was entirely derived from a handful of parishes on the East Coast. He elevated what he found there to the status of a universal law about how music and presiding style must be in almost every US Catholic parish. It wasn't true then, and it certainly isn't now.

If, on the other hand, you enjoy reading a book which is a sneering rant from beginning to end, then carry on!

I started reading it and would agree that it's not well written, lacks focus, and is full of negativity (he does seem a bit bitter and twisted) but some of the descriptions that he makes about congregational behaviour are certainly familiar. One thing he also mentions which I have come across is a sense of denial, both by PPs and members of the congregation that hardly anyone sings. One PP in a London parish did say to me that "no matter what you put down, no-one sings" which was at least refreshing, but he clearly was at a loss as to how to overcome this.

[londonchurchman]

The parish where I grew up and played for a number of years used to sing really quite well and still do when I go back to visit.
The parish where I play now are far more quiet despite trying to give them a mixture of traditional and modern, well-known and new, and having a small choir to lead things. If they don't want to sing it can be so frustrating - I can remember one Sunday playing the well-known classic My Song is Love unknown at Communion (my all time favourite as mentioned elsewhere on the forum). 3 of the choir were Eucharistic ministers and I could only (barely) hear the rest of the choir singing.....and no-one else.

Having said that, any Catholic parish, anywhere, on any Sunday will always raise the roof for Hail Queen of Heaven.

That's true - one of the most moving and memorable experiences was at Westminster Cathedral at Vespers when everyone sang Salve Regina so beautifully, it almost made me weep. And then at mass which followed, the hymns were "Come Down O love Divine" and "Sweet Sacrament Divine" and complete silence from the congregation.

[VML]

Could this be because Salve Regina is internationally known and sung, but e.g.Down Ampney, much as I love it, is very English, and Westminster Cathedral, of all English churches, is likely to have a worldwide congregation?

[docmattc]

The standard of singing is difficult to judge because it cannot be accurately quantified. Judgement of how well a congregation sings differs from person to person. The baseline is in a different place for all of us, depending on our experience and expectations.

As I posted here some years ago. I would have said that the congregation in my former place sang well. In comparison to other Catholic Churches I would still stand by that. However, one evening we hosted a well attended ecumenical service, and the standard of the congregational singing was in a totally different league. I could actually accompany the singing. I suspect that if I had gently closed the swell box and faded out, they congregation would have just carried on. If I did that on a Sunday morning, the congregation would fade out first.

[Hare]

St Andrew's, Tenterden, Kent TN30 6LL

Thanks - I think it's always a good sign when a parish has a specific page dedicated to music and explains what music can be expected at the various masses. This is something which is nit as common as it should be.

Thank you! www.standrewstenterden.org I am currently looking into the practicality of publishing weekly music lists.

[Gwyn]

I note that St. Andrew's has a link (withing its Music page) to the 2005 GIRM. Is that the current GIRM?

[Nick Baty]

I am currently looking into the practicality of publishing weekly music lists.

There are several on here who so do, using Blogger:
http://stmarysmus.blogspot.co.uk
http://immaculatemusic.blogspot.co.uk
http://salfordcathedralmusic.blogspot.co.uk

[Southern Comfort]

one of the most moving and memorable experiences was at Westminster Cathedral at Vespers when everyone sang Salve Regina so beautifully, it almost made me weep. And then at mass which followed, the hymns were "Come Down O love Divine" and "Sweet Sacrament Divine" and complete silence from the congregation.

Quite apart from the international composition of the congregation, which has already been mentioned, it's worth remembering that Westminster Cathedral for many years was notorious for having a policy of discouraging congregational singing.* That legacy still lives on to a certain extent. In any case, it's a very difficult building to sing in because of the absence of reflective surfaces anywhere near at hand. (The widest nave in Christendom, we are told.) When you're singing, all the sound goes straight up into nothing.

Another problem is accompaniment. If you're sitting near the back of the cathedral, the west end organ is simply too loud the way it is often played. You feel you can't compete, so you don't even try. The reason it's often played too loudly is because the player is often at the apse end and, while coping with the huge timelag (it''s like playing through a snowdrift) cannot easily judge how loud the instrument is in the rear half of the nave. In the days when I was doing this I used to adopt the principle of using less organ than you would normally think; and it seemed to work well. Supporting rather than dominating.

*A true story: the very first time they attempted to have congregational hymn singing at Westminster during a normal Mass (on the insistence of the precentor, who wanted to involve the people), the then Master of Music instructed the organist to play the hymns so slowly that you almost had to take a breath between each note. I was there. Of course, no one sang, and the MM was then able to turn round to the precentor and say "See? We tried it and it didn't work." This continued for several weeks until the idea was abandoned. It was not subsequently revived for a number of years.