Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

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mcb
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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by mcb » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:32 pm

Իմ ամառանոց լի գազար. :-)
Last edited by mcb on Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Peter Jones
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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:38 pm

For non-Armenian speakers:

mcb says - "I am losing the will to live"

awwwwwwwwwww
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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:47 pm

keitha wrote:
So the options are..........


Have we reached the same conclusions following slightly different pathways?
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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:27 pm

Peter Jones wrote:If the temporary vessel in the sanctuary is used as a font and there are baptisms - it's a font - and the blessing prayer p.411 is used. The Litany is sung - wording for baptisms.


But what if it's not a font after all - what does the presiding priest say at the blessing of the non-font? Please look carefully at the rubrics during the prayer on page 412. Try removing a comma after "if approriate", for example.

Note also that the first prayer - p.411f - is a blessing of BAPTISMAL water and that the second prayer, p.416 , is but a blessing of water. There is not enough clarity - in my opinion - as to what to do when there is a baptism on the sanctuary using a temporary vessel, rather than a font. But we do sing the Litany!!
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festivaltrumpet
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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by festivaltrumpet » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:21 pm

It is abundantly obvious however that any interpretation of the rubric which deviates from the mind of the Church (equivalent to the will of God) is damned to the eternal punishment of Hell.

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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by NorthernTenor » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:30 pm

festivaltrumpet wrote:It is abundantly obvious however that any interpretation of the rubric which deviates from the mind of the Church (equivalent to the will of God) is damned to the eternal punishment of Hell.


An abundance of rules in too great a degree of detail gets authority a bad name (I will forbear from making the obvious comment on a topic that belongs to another thread).
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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:49 pm

Meanwhile - upon what is the Spirit being asked to come down? Old ICEL, it's the water. New ICEL and the Latin - the "fullness" - presumably whatever fills the font - the water.
So to speak in terms of a blessing of an object, the font, is possibly misleading. Rubric 42 - in either Latin (42.Si non adsunt baptizandi, neque benedicendus est fons, omissislitaniis, statim proceditur ad benedictionem aquæ (n.54)) or English - is nebulous to our immediate ways of thinking, in that the baptismal font itself is not going to be "blessed" be there baptisms or not.

Old ICEL -
We ask you, Father, with your Son to send the Holy Spirit upon the waters of this font.

New ICEL
May the power of the Holy Spirit, O Lord, we pray, come down through your Son into the fullness of this font.

MR 2002
Descéndat, quǽsumus, Dómine,in hanc plenitúdinem fontis per Fílium tuum virtus Spíritus Sancti,

The Latin fons need not mean a stone or wooden object - what we call a baptismal font. The Latin means more spring or fountain .... so if I stop thinking about "a font" and concentrate on the water, it matters not whether the vessel is a stone font or a fruit bowl - or even a Portapotty - font is best interpreted as the water itself.
(I think I have now convinced myself that I can pray p.412, no matter the vessel.)
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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:04 pm

Այժմ ես ասում եմ ստանալ կյանքը ... :lol:
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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by Peter Jones » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:31 pm

Ros Wood wrote:Is the font being blessed?
Errrr ..... yes and no.
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Southern Comfort
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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by Southern Comfort » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:09 pm

Peter Jones wrote:(I think I have now convinced myself that I can pray p.412, no matter the vessel.)


Well, thank goodness for that! :roll: That's what I've been saying all along. :D And without the benefit of Armenian :lol: or a Concordat for same. :mrgreen:

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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by Peter Jones » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:34 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:
Peter Jones wrote:(I think I have now convinced myself that I can pray p.412, no matter the vessel.)


Well, thank goodness for that! :roll:


I still think rubric 42 is poorly worded and ambiguous. I suggest:

If no one is to be baptized and the Blessing of Baptismal Water does not take place, the Litany is omitted and the Blessing of Water (54) takes place at once. :wink:
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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by NorthernTenor » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:36 pm

Peter Jones wrote:
Southern Comfort wrote:
Peter Jones wrote:(I think I have now convinced myself that I can pray p.412, no matter the vessel.)


Well, thank goodness for that! :roll:


I still think rubric 42 is poorly worded and ambiguous. I suggest:

If no one is to be baptized and the Blessing of Baptismal Water does not take place, the Litany is omitted and the Blessing of Water (54) takes place at once. :wink:


A model of clarity.
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NorthernTenor
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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by NorthernTenor » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:46 pm

NorthernTenor wrote:
Peter Jones wrote:I suggest:

If no one is to be baptized and the Blessing of Baptismal Water does not take place, the Litany is omitted and the Blessing of Water (54) takes place at once. :wink:


A model of clarity.


Bureaucrats & place-men: read, mark & inwardly digest.
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keitha
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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by keitha » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:14 am

:lol: Vox clara?!
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Re: Litany Of The Saints at Easter Vigil

Post by JW » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:36 pm

I just wonder what the point is of blessing water and relating the blessing to baptisms if the water isn't going to be used for baptism? See my previous 'contribution'. The symbol seems to be divorced from reality.
JW

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