You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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johnquinn39
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You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by johnquinn39 » Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:36 am

Gleaned from our friends at the Chant Cafe:


One need only compare (randomly) this coming Sunday's collect for the 14th Sunday of the Year:

OLD
Father, through the obedience of Jesus,
your servant and your Son,
you raised a fallen world.
Free us from sin
and bring us the joy that lasts forever.

NEW:
O God, who in the abasement of your Son
have raised up a fallen world,
fill your faithful with holy joy,
for on those you have rescued from slavery to sin
you bestow eternal gladness.
Through our Lord Jesus Christ..

Possibly this may induce the Toronto blessing ... but will any priest in his right mind bother with this drivel?

alan29
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Re: You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by alan29 » Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:32 pm

I could just weep.
Mrs Bucket (sorry Bouquet) rides again!

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presbyter
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Re: You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by presbyter » Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:14 pm

For a different point of view see:

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/07/wdtprs-of-enervated-bodies-collect-14th-sunday-of-ordinary-time-2002mr/

and another point of view here:

http://www.liturgy.co.nz/reflection/14ordinarysunday.html

I am in my right mind and I will be praying this prayer on the 14th Sunday next year.

alan29
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Re: You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by alan29 » Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:08 pm

Thanks for those links.
That's quite a lot of exegesis for a short prayer.
I wonder how many preachers will take the opportunity to unwrap it? It certainly merits careful explanation.

nazard
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Re: You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by nazard » Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:56 pm

Are you seriously suggesting that we have slid so far into English for Sun Readers that anyone finds that new text hard to understand? Throw out the tv and read some good books.

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presbyter
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Re: You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by presbyter » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:11 pm

johnquinn39 wrote:
NEW:
O God, who in the abasement of your Son
have raised up a fallen world,
fill your faithful with holy joy,
for on those you have rescued from slavery to sin
you bestow eternal gladness.
Through our Lord Jesus Christ..



Is this drivel too, in your opinion?

Angelus wrote:Pour forth, we beseech Thee, O Lord,
Thy grace into our hearts;
that we, to whom the incarnation of Christ, Thy Son,
was made known by the message of an angel,
may by His Passion and Cross be brought to the glory of His Resurrection,
through the same Christ Our Lord.

JW
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Re: You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by JW » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:34 pm

I certainly don't think its drivel, but I do worry about such use of the English language which is so different to people's experience. Wouldn't 'humility' be a more accurate and understandable translation of 'humilitate' than abasement? And what is wrong with translating 'facias' as 'make' rather than 'bestow': we are losing the immediacy of the Latin here? IF the Latin uses a simple word, why translate it into something grander - that isn't being faithful to the Latin?

Again, is fidélibus tuis sanctam concéde lætítiam best tranlated by 'fill your faithful with holy joy'? Where does the 'fill' come from? Wouldn't something like 'concede holy joy to your faithful' be more accurate? And what is the Latin for 'happiness', isn't it 'laetitia', so why not use 'happiness' (or perhaps the Romans didn't know what happiness is!)? Homilies are going to be very long if they have to explain all the translations, they should be intelligible to the people - the original Latin was. I'd rather like to hear a sermon about being filled with holy joy . Can't see much evidence of being filled with holy joy around. There is a joy there, but FILLED? Try telling that to the depressed people in a congregation. I'd like some of that joy, and I shouldn't have to wait till I die, fruits of the Spirit being Love, Joy etc., but then I suppose I'm a sinner: not much evidence of the other fruits about either! One day my cup will overflow!

As for the "Toronto blessing", while not wishing to denigrate people's experiences, I'm not sure what that was about. If that is what we are meant to experience, then most Catholics need re-wiring. If you are full of holy happiness, surely you stay full, it's not just about an 'experience' or 'blessing'. The most charitable interpretation of it is that it possibly did good for the people concerned.

BTW, thanks for the links, Presbyter.

I'm off on holiday to Southwold, in case you think this post is wackier than my usual.
Last edited by JW on Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JW

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presbyter
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Re: You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by presbyter » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:54 pm

JW wrote:Wouldn't 'humility' be a more accurate and understandable translation of 'humilitate' than abasement?


For what it's worth - and I may well be barking up the wrong tree - but this might be a subtle theological point:

Abase is generally reflexive and so its use here reflects Phil 2:8 - 'he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death-- even death on a cross'

I am open to correction.

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Calum Cille
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Re: You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by Calum Cille » Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:11 pm

JW wrote:Wouldn't 'humility' be a more accurate and understandable translation of 'humilitate' than abasement?

How about 'the humbling of your Son', which has strong overtones of being brought down to size, whereas 'humiliation' has strong overtones of being shamed in public?

JW wrote:Wouldn't something like 'concede holy joy to your faithful' be more accurate?

How about 'grant holy joy to your faithful?

JW wrote:And what is the Latin for 'happiness', isn't it 'laetitia', so why not use 'happiness' (or perhaps the Romans didn't know what happiness is!)?

Isn't is a matter of collocation and flavour? 'Holy joy' sounds fairly natural and respectful. 'Holy happiness' sounds a bit down-market or reminiscent of Buddhism - no offence intended!

John Ainslie
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Re: You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by John Ainslie » Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:39 pm

As a matter of interest, here are ICEL's own 2008 version - and the former ICEL's 1998 version:
ICEL 2008
O God, who in the abasement of your Son
raised up a fallen world,
grant your faithful people a holy joy,
so that those you have snatched from the slavery of sin
you will bring to enjoy eternal happiness.

ICEL 1998
God of power,
who raised up a fallen world
through the lowliness of your Son,
grant to your faithful people a holy joy,
so that those whom you have rescued from the slavery of sin
may delight in the happiness that never ends.

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Calum Cille
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Re: You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by Calum Cille » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:08 pm

I can never quite grasp their consistency laws, which probably means there are none, perhaps because there would be be too many to remember. Both versions add the noun 'people' as if Catholics have never heard the term 'prayers of the faithful' before. Isn't 'people' an unnecessary step away from the Latin? Isn't "the faithful" not succinct, poetic and beautiful enough?

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mcb
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Re: You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by mcb » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:09 pm

John Ainslie wrote:ICEL's own 2008 version - and the former ICEL's 1998 version

The comparison is heartbreaking.

Eastern Promise
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Re: You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by Eastern Promise » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:20 pm

Have you thought about just calling it a day?

alan29
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Re: You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by alan29 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:10 pm

"eternal gladness." That is a strange bit of English. What's wrong with "everlasting joy."
Oh, I see we already have "holy joy," earlier.
I have to say it is the contorted sentence in the second half of the prayer that I find inelegant.

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Re: You (ICEL) cannot be serious!

Post by Eastern Promise » Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:40 pm

I wholeheartedly agree with many here. This is tragic. I too wept from the bowls of my soul, and probably even more than others here. "Eternal gladness?!" What on earth were they thinking of? But that's not the worst. Why, oh why are they still going on about "power"? In this day and age? Why is the Catholic Church still obsessively obsessed with these hierarchical, male-oriented, phallic phenomena? Do they not know how much offence this kind of thing can cause?

And even the word "God" is a bit iffy these days for that growing number of people who have issues with these kind of things. I bet Bishop Maurice Taylor could have devised a less problematical way of expressing these awkward ideas.

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