Glory to God

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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contrabordun
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Post by contrabordun »

Or the question - how long do we expect a Mass part to last - say with annual seasonal use?


When were De Angelis et al written? Maybe we just have a very short attention span these days? Or maybe there's a parallel with the well known phenomenon in hymnody - in all music I suppose - that 99% of what is written has a relatively short half life, and the remaining 1%, the truly great* goes on and on.

*bit of a non sequitur, but you know what I mean, and I'm not trying to excuse the fact that All Things Bright And Beautiful is still not dead.
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Post by Merseysider »

We want them to last as long as people are enjoying singing them and they're not palling (sp?). Having a few to hand for different seasons is the ideal.

And how long is the life of any one item?

Just tonight I was introducing a local music group to Coventry Gloria – they've never heard it before – one said to me: "I love that new Gloria". They'll get Coventry Sanctus later in the year.

It's kind of: "How long is a piece of string?"

Real old warhorses can be just the thing at a major celebration when you have brass and/or choir parts to add.

M
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contrabordun
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Post by contrabordun »

Benevenio wrote:Perhaps there's an argument for not always celebrating the Eucharist when we meet, for more encouragement for the people to assemble on a Sunday evening not for Mass but for evening prayer. Give me a more varied diet, please!


I'd have to vote for putting Choral Evensong on that menu.. :wink:
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Gwyn
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Post by Gwyn »

I'd have to vote for putting Choral Evensong on that menu


You only have to look at Evensong in the vast majority of anglican parish churches, with seven old dears in the congregation and a choir made up of one tenor, an alto and maybe three or four sopranos with a thyrotoxic warble to realise that you're on a hiding to nowhere with that. Most vicars would like to see it die (unless they're on some sort of nostalgia trip!!).

To draw a comaprison, we have a local chapel which has a Welsh service at 3 pm once monthly on a Sunday afternoon; the 'worshippers' (all five) arrive at 2.59 "just to keep it going for future generations" Few if any of them derive any spiritual sustenance from from the ramblings of the visiting aged Parchedig. It's a wholly mind-numbing experience. I've played the organ for it a few times, losing the will to live in the process - and you lot whinge about latin??? You should try Welsh!

From the age of 16 years to 24 years of age I lived life as an anglican (I was nothing in particular prior to that). Please don't inflict Cranmer's Stew as a regular item on the spiritual menu.

Evensong has much to offer as a novelty item but God preserve me from having to endure it any more frequently than every five years if that.
Last edited by Gwyn on Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Merseysider »

Evensong/Evening Prayer – same thing.

We have Evening Prayer once a month and the word is spreading: just our 12 choir ladies to begin with, 24 people the next month and more than 30 the month after. Who knows how many next Tuesday. Novelty value perhaps? Don't know except they seem to like it.

Some psalms recited, some sung, some Taizé, metrical magnificat, chanted Lord's Prayer, lady chapel for final anthem. Most of all, loads of silence.

We're a small parish with half a priest – Sunday Mass has a congregation of just 100 so 30+ people on a Tuesday evening is quite good. During the week there's only one Mass and, since we've had a deacon, one eucharistic service. Now I lead Evening Prayer.

I can understand why one or two of you are a tad scathing about Evensong (I too have done my time in a small declining Anglican church) but for our parish it's a new and growing experience.

Is this worth a new thread? Celebrating Evening Prayer?

M
pirate
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Glory to God, becoming Evensong...

Post by pirate »

Gwyn asks us to 'draw a comaprison' (sorry, the 'quotes experience baffles me, and I'm currently on a pay-as-you-go computer)... seems to me that's a perfect description of some of the evensongs I've been to... yes, the music can be wonderful, and as a chillout experience or place for desparate personal prayer it's effective, but communal liturgical worship? No-oo, not convinced. I always think 'where is the structure of this event?'

The ultimate came last year at a special Festival evensong at my local cathedral, when the reader (nay, the Festival director himself) dramatically proclaimed the story of Joshua plus army marching round Jericho, lots of suspense... and then stopped before the walls actually fell. And no apparent reason for that particular reading, either... Followed by an absolutely fabulous choral piece about Jesus walking on the water, and Peter trying to walk to him... one of the adult lay clerks standing in the middle of the choir singing Jesus and one of the boys about twenty feet away, facing him, singing Peter, the rest of the choir singing the waves and the wind... wonderful music, brilliant theatre and very dramatic. But not linked to anything before or after. Definitely not a comaprison on that occasion, but maybe an opportunity missed...

On the other hand I can find myself trudging through the psalms of Evening Prayer wondering if it's a counting exercise, particularly if I'm in a monastery. But then I read Kathleen Norris (The Cloister Walk) and I'm back on board again.

pirate
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musicus
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Everything in its place

Post by musicus »

Please use the Morning and Evening Prayer thread to continue discussions of Evensong etc, and use this thread to discuss the Glory to God.

Many thanks

Musicus
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sidvicius
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...as we Sing our Song of Praise:

Post by sidvicius »

I still haven't found a 'proper' Gloria that truly reaches God though - I want one that absolutely blows the roof off, 'Faith of our Fathers'-style.

There are some cheerful versions (Ylvisaker, Leftley, Salazar) but they don't use the agreed text and I agree with Contrabordun that 'responsorial' Glorias should be avoided - we should ALL sing God's praises, every last agreed-translation-dagnabbit word of it.

- where possible...
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Post by Merseysider »

Have you tried Chris Walker's Gloria Festiva. Magnificent!
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sidvicius
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Sounds a bit Posh...

Post by sidvicius »

If it can be played on a triangle and a washboard, I'll give it a shot. Sorry, should have pointed out that our orchestral resources are sometimes stretched!

Where can I find it? Who publishes it?
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VML
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Post by VML »

contrabordun wrote:*bit of a non sequitur, but you know what I mean, and I'm not trying to excuse the fact that All Things Bright And Beautiful is still not dead.


No, unfortunately. We've had it for a Baptism and a funeral in the last 7 days!
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contrabordun
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Post by contrabordun »

VML wrote:
contrabordun wrote:*bit of a non sequitur, but you know what I mean, and I'm not trying to excuse the fact that All Things Bright And Beautiful is still not dead.


No, unfortunately. We've had it for a Baptism and a funeral in the last 7 days!


I usually have to play it at weddings. Hatch, match and dispatch. The perfect piece for all seasons. Anyone for Crimond?
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PaulW
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New Forum

Post by PaulW »

You may have noticed that there is a new forum with music files from the SSG Composers' Group which you can download. The first files available are settings of the Gloria.
Paul
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Dot
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To R/ or not to R/

Post by Dot »

Looking forward to the next batch of uploads……but back to Glorias.

I recentlywrote a Gloria with our primary school children in mind. It is responsorial with the response in Latin: “Gloria in excelsis Deo, et in terra pax, pax hominibus” The words of the main text, in English, divide into the three obvious “verses” with a more sober mood in the middle verse; they do not deviate from the ICEL text. Seems fine to me, but I was aware that current thinking favours through settings of the Gloria.

I have just read this document which argues strongly against responsorial Glorias. It goes on to assassinate various responsorial settings, one of which I admire and one of which I loathe. I am not strongly swayed by the arguments presented, and am yet to hear a through Gloria that I feel our congregation would sing in its entirity. Perhaps the closest is Bob Hurd’s chant setting. If they’ll sing a response with conviction (and certainly the children do), that’s a reason for not rejecting it as “a liturgical, musical and semantic disaster” (ibid).

Just one point that the author made was persuasive enough to make me want to modify my text. He states that the phrase “and peace to his people on earth” is a poor rendition of the Latin “et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis” or ”……eudokias” in Greek. There’s no way I can tag “bonae voluntatis” on the end of the refrain for musical reasons, but it does make me wonder what they’ll come up with in the new translation to try and convey this meaning.

Dot
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Post by Merseysider »

Oh Dot, ignore some of the hot air on here.

Anyway, there's "responsorial" and "responsorial". Having the same refrain throughout might get on your nerves after a while but not in every case – I tend to think of these as "refrain" glorias. Others like Inwood's "Glory, glory" and Walker's "St Augustine Gloria" have more than one refrain and I've seen them work well in quite a few places.

I've just written one for our parish which is sort of through-composed. However, the first and third sections have more or less the same tune (which the assembly is coping with) with a contrasting middle section which the choir are singing at the moment (hopefully the good folk in the pews will sing that too eventually). It seems to work.

If you're the Dot I think you are then I've heard some mighty good things about your Gloria. You're doing something great for the kids in your parish – ignore the critics.
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