ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

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Southern Comfort
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Re: ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

Post by Southern Comfort » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:57 pm

Nick Baty wrote:Of course in those days ICEL will have been a new body working with a new concept and was, doubtless, suspicious of everything and everybody.


No they weren't, they were just thugs, stealing other people's texts left, right and centre and pretending that they were their own. This was in part because they didn't have the same access to the Roman dicasteries as others did, and in part because they didn't always have the competence or (more often) the time to do their own work. There's a whole history waiting to be written about this some day. While they haven't been nearly as bad as that in recent times, occasionally the old habits seem to rear their ugly heads.

Nick Baty wrote:(By the way, who did the first translation into English (65/67?) – am I right in thinking ICEL's first attempt was the 1973 Missal? Or did they do the first one and then revise it?)


ICEL's first draft effort was the Roman Canon in 1965. Their first published effort was the 1969/70 Order of Mass, followed by the 1970 Holy Week rites, both incorporated into the 1973 Missal. The 1966 text for the Order of Mass that we used was produced by the National Liturgical Commission of England & Wales. The original prayers and antiphons of the Missal that we used were also done by the NLC, which is why Goodliffe Neale missalettes for years carried both NLC and ICEL translations of them.

Nick Baty wrote:However, I'm interested in the tale of your American publisher. Over here, nobody would be publishing a solus Sanctus but would be presenting a set of acclamations. "Excerpts from the English translation of The Roman Missal © 2010 ICEL" is less specific in this case.


The American publisher is indeed publishing "suites" (as they call them) of eucharistic acclamations. The copyright acknowledgement dispute was in relation to the ICET Sanctus in those suites.

Nick Baty wrote:And isn't there a case for claiming copyright on a collection? Otherwise, how does the Holy See manage to claim copyright over the whole Missale Romanum when so much of it has been in the public domain for so long?


You're confusing compilation copyright with copyright over texts. The Holy See is just as interested in money as anyone else. They receive a royalty on all official liturgical books. When it comes to Latin originals from which translations are made, no one else gets a look-in! However, they're not doing this under a compilation copyright but a textual one. They say they "own" the Latin, even if it has been around for centuries.
Last edited by Southern Comfort on Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nick Baty
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Re: ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

Post by Nick Baty » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:01 pm

Thank you for that, SC.
And am I right in remembering (only just old enough, you understand) that the 1966 NLC text of the Sanctus was very similar to that which is now published by ICEL?

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Re: ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

Post by Southern Comfort » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:04 pm

Similar, but not identical:

Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of hosts:
your glory fills all heaven and earth.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

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Re: ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

Post by NorthernTenor » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:05 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:When it comes to Latin originals from which translations are made, no one else gets a look-in! However, they're not doing this under a compilation copyright but a textual one. They say they "own" the Latin, even if it has been around for centuries.


Whatever rights the Vatican may have within its own limited boundaries, it would be laughed out of anyone else's courts if it tried to assert copyright over the older Latin and Greek texts, which have been around since long before the development of copyright law.
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Nick Baty
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Re: ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

Post by Nick Baty » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:13 pm

Southern Comfort wrote:Similar, but not identical

Yes, it's the second line in particular – and several composers kept this arrangement of words in more recent settings. Childhood memories are of stiff cards in the pews and Mum pointing out the words to me. And wasn't there a time when we were allowed to say the words but not sing them?

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Re: ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

Post by presbyter » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:17 pm

NorthernTenor wrote:it would be laughed out of anyone else's courts if it tried to assert copyright over the older Latin and Greek texts


Seventy years after the death of the author......... you have a point there NT! :wink:

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Re: ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

Post by quaeritor » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:39 am

I'm away on holiday at the moment (is there a smiley for "smug"?) so I can't rush to my ancient missal, which was a long-established version by the time I was given it in the early fifties, but it certainly had English down one half of the page - and presumably in those days an Imprimatur as well (all subject to checking when I get home) - so whose translation was that? - I can't wait to check the wording of the Sanctus!

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Re: ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

Post by Nick Baty » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:21 am

In the 1958 edition of the Missal in front of me it's:
Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Hosts.
Heaven and earth are full of Thy glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

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Re: ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

Post by nazard » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:09 pm

presbyter wrote:
Seventy years after the death of the author...


Isn't the whole point of our faith that the author is still alive?

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Nick Baty
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Re: ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

Post by Nick Baty » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:15 pm

And it's a shame they wouldn't let him on to the board of ICEL! :D

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Re: ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

Post by presbyter » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:22 pm

Nick Baty wrote:And it's a shame they wouldn't let him on to the board of ICEL! :D


Matthew 18:20 ??

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Re: ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

Post by Nick Baty » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:24 pm

:D

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Re: ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

Post by JW » Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:29 pm

I've 'bumped' this discussion in view of recent references to Copyright on another topic. It seems to me to be a useful guide to ICEL and Copyright for Mass settings.

Is there anything we can do about ICEL? It doesn't look as if they've consulted properly over their copyright entitlement. To claim copyright over the current translations for 'Lord Have Mercy', 'Holy Holy' and Lamb of God' is, IMO, illegal, even if they don't charge for the use of those translations. Sadly, English-speaking Bishops Conferences seem content to go along with ICEL.
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Re: ICEL moving the copyright goal posts?

Post by Southern Comfort » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:20 pm

JW wrote:I've 'bumped' this discussion in view of recent references to Copyright on another topic. It seems to me to be a useful guide to ICEL and Copyright for Mass settings.

Is there anything we can do about ICEL? It doesn't look as if they've consulted properly over their copyright entitlement. To claim copyright over the current translations for 'Lord Have Mercy', 'Holy Holy' and Lamb of God' is, IMO, illegal, even if they don't charge for the use of those translations. Sadly, English-speaking Bishops Conferences seem content to go along with ICEL.


I don't think too many people really care very much about ICEL, JW, so probably your concwrn will not attract much ttraction.

One reason why the English-speaking Bishops' Conferences go along with all this is because they themselves get a financial return from ICEL.

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