Comparing the meerkat - the digital experience!

[Psalm Project]

Re cost. PM me if you want the spec and details.
all I can confirm here is that a Makin of similar proportions was quoted at over 12K more (Sterling £)... on top of which an installation fee was going to be levied!
My meeting with them was aggressively sales driven and pushy. At the end of the day, I was not talking to the person who either built or designed the instrument. All I got was shiny brochures and model numbers. Our Phoenix does not have a glossy brochure or a model number - it is unique!
There was an extra charge lurking around every corner. I visited the Makin showroom last year in Shaw and was not impressed at the build quality. The more costly Makin only had a roller shutter lid - our Phoenix has four solid mahogany framed glass doors and a solid folding top (and solid mahogany framed sides and back. Also, our pedal board is a proper Renatus with traditional felt bushings and rosewood capped sharps. The Makin, even though the pedal sticks are oak, has neoprene pedal bushings - Nasty from previous experience. It really is down to detail. I worked for a few years in organ building many years ago and appreciate such detail. Even our expression pedals are the cast aluminium with rubber insert - great positive feel and good quality.
After sales... I could be smart and say we've not had to call on that yet! All my questions and concerns to date have been satisfactorily dealt with.

[Hare]

I carried out a similar exercise about 18 months ago, and Viscount came out on top in terms of sound quality, "customability(?!)" and budget. In an earlier post, it was mentioned that a certain amount of customization was possible. To my knowledge, one can totally customize the stop list of the Prestige range, as I did - and Viscount have also instigated a software update to accomodate one of my requests. PM me if you want more info or to come and try (Kent)

My only caveat at the time was that I would have preferred "standard" design thumb pistons, but in practice this has not proved a problem, nor affected my (and the congregation's) enjoyment of the instrument. A nearby organist (FRCO) who has access to a Copeman Hart and a Makin, is totally won-over and finds the sound quality superior to C-H.

I would perhaps not condemn some of the other makes quite so damningly, although I was less than impressed with a new Allen a few miles away! I play a 5/6 year old Wyvern occasionally and find the keyboard touch like an electric "keyboard" and the tab couplers under the music rest are hard to see. I also play a 10 year old Eminent at a local crem, and it is not bad for 10 years old. I am sure they must have moved on since.

[Nick Baty]

Nick - if you were an organist and had the organ console at one end and the speakers at the other end you would not appreciate the inherent problem that introduces. Try working with a soloist and get the balance right - It's hell on earth.

I'm sure you're right. But nowhere near as problematic as the previous instrument where the console was also in the gallery, so as far away from the choir and cantor as it's physically possible to be in that great barn of a building. In fact, we simply had to stop using it because of the time lag. With the new instrument arrived, we had little choice with the positioning of speakers because, with an 1833 building, both English Heritage and Historic Churches had to be consulted. And at one stage they weren't even going to let us have the console where we needed it. The final decision was based on whether it would have a plug or be permanently plumbed in!

[Southern Comfort]

Of course any of our opinions is a matter of personal taste, coupled with our own knowledge and experience. I was simply trying to give keitha the benefit of mine. My apologies if I offended anyone by telling it as I found it.

I'm certainly not an agent for C H. They are a difficult firm to deal with ─ partly because they are run by an eccentric genius ─ but the results are superb if they are properly "managed" by someone who knows what they are doing. I have just been told in a PM that their after-sales service is sometimes not all that it might be. Once again, I think proper management may be the answer to this. Many of the other manufacturers have dismal after-sales service records. Allen are probably the worst in this regard.

As for Phoenix, all I can say is that their factory is located here in the South but curiously not as many instruments are installed down south as further north. None of the ones I have seen in this part of the world are at all impressive, and this opinion is shared by others whose opinions I respect. And they are expensive ─ far more expensive than Makin, whatever Psalm Project's experience may be. Perhaps the fact that s/he is in Ireland makes a difference there. (Phoenix are custom-built, Makin are off-the-peg (though to a limited extent customisable ─ at a price), so you'd expect their prices to be higher.)

When I first heard the Phoenix demo CD (an Irish installation) and what is on the Leeds Cathedral website, I was prepared to be wowed ─ but the reality in parish churches down here was very different, even on instruments more recent than those in the demo recordings. Cf. what I said in my previous post about direct-feed recordings as opposed to live recording with mics in a church.

Makin do sell instruments manufactured by Johannus, but they also claim to produce their own alongside. One of "their own" that I played a number of times recently was disastrous. Quite apart from anything else, it kept breaking down (blowing fuses!) in the middle of services. They have recently had a number of "special offers" on instruments which brought their prices down to the level of Wyvern and Viscount. Their Johannus-built instruments, to my ears, sound horrid.

Cathedral are really only interested in selling you what they think you will afford. Any requests beyond that are routinely ignored.

As far as Viscount's customisation is concerned, if you have the skills you can actually do it yourself with individual voices on your laptop. But they are happy to do it for you, as Hare points out.

[Hare]

As far as Viscount's customisation is concerned, if you have the skills you can actually do it yourself with individual voices on your laptop. But they are happy to do it for you, as Hare points out.

I believe a voicing programme is needed to use a laptop. Individual voices can be "tweaked" via a control panel, but changes to the stop list have to be done via a laptop.

[Gwyn]

Presbyter asked re. Copeman Hart organ

How much did manufacture and installation cost Gwyn? How's the after-sales service from this company?

I'll fish out all the information today and post it here later.

Ours is more than ten years old now and still sweet as a nut. iirc the first ten years servicing was included in the cost.

We get a telephone call from C.H. a month before C.H.'s planned annual visit asking about any concerns or problems that might be occurring. They're happy to be contacted at any other time if problems are occuring - this has only happened once in the history of its installation, a C.H. engineer was with us within a couple of days; they'd have sent someone sooner if we'd needed.

About 50% of the cost was met with National Lottery and other grants. These couldn't be gotten solely on the instrument's liturgical requirements, but rather since there is no organ of recital standard anywhere within a 25 or so mile radius, we got funding on the strength of that, the parish raising the other 50%.

Abbot Alan Rees played the opening recital and was an instant C.H. convert from his first practic(s?)e session on it. He'd been cautious about digital prior to that.

Any of the firms will come and give you an estimate Keitha, usually for free. They'll tweak the proposed installation to suit your needs/funds. You can always add bits later, we added a nice beefy large open diapason to our Great Manual.

[Hare]

Presbyter asked re. Copeman Hart organ

How much did manufacture and installation cost Gwyn? How's the after-sales service from this company?

I'll fish out all the information today and post it here later.

Ours is more than ten years old now and still sweet as a nut. iirc the first ten years servicing was included in the cost.

We get a telephone call from C.H. a month before C.H.'s planned annual visit asking about any concerns or problems that might be occurring. They're happy to be contacted at any other time if problems are occuring - this has only happened once in the history of its installation, a C.H. engineer was with us within a couple of days; they'd have sent someone sooner if we'd needed.

About 50% of the cost was met with National Lottery and other grants. These couldn't be gotten solely on the instrument's liturgical requirements, but rather since there is no organ of recital standard anywhere within a 25 or so mile radius, we got funding on the strength of that, the parish raising the other 50%.

Abbot Alan Rees played the opening recital and was an instant C.H. convert from his first practic(s?)e session on it. He'd been cautious about digital prior to that.

Any of the firms will come and give you an estimate Keitha, usually for free. They'll tweak the proposed installation to suit your needs/funds. You can always add bits later, we added a nice beefy large open diapason to our Great Manual.

A pity yours isn't on the CH website, Gwyn..

[Gwyn]

Hare lamented,

A pity yours isn't on the CH website, Gwyn..

Yes indeed. It did live there for a couple of years after its installation. I've got a rehearsal for sops and alts this eve, after which I'll jot down the spec and post it here.

Any posters who fancy giving it a whirl are more than welcome to do so. PM me and we'll arrange it.

[Psalm Project]

SC...
Your quote: "As for Phoenix, all I can say is that their factory is located here in the South but curiously not as many instruments are installed down south as further north. None of the ones I have seen in this part of the world are at all impressive, and this opinion is shared by others whose opinions I respect. And they are expensive ─ far more expensive than Makin, whatever Psalm Project's experience may be. Perhaps the fact that s/he is in Ireland makes a difference there. (Phoenix are custom-built, Makin are off-the-peg (though to a limited extent customisable ─ at a price), so you'd expect their prices to be higher.)

I'm a HE not a SHE
The factory you mention is Renatus. They make the consoles. Top class stuff.
Before I made my decision I went to meet the Makin people and Phoenix - I spent three days traveling between Manchester and Preston to satisfy myself about the quality.
I gave both Makin and Phoenix the identical specification of what I wanted. Phoenix carried out my wishes to the letter. Makin hummed and hawed about everyone else - essentially knocked the competition. However, it was the pricing that stunned me. Spec for spec, Makin was vastly more expensive. Let's work this out here... They get the organ made in Holland - they get a price from Johannus and slap on a big markup. I won't get into the detail here - the story is too long! I still retain the comparative price lists for a giggle!
What we got is something really special... Being on the Emerald Isle should technically have made it more expensive - Three chaps on a ferry and two full days over here all included? Wakey Wakey people... Don't scoff at Phoenix re price. They can make those organs do whatever you want. It's all down to the installation and critical voicing. (Sometimes voicing is dictated by individual organists, which I understand from discussions can sometimes not be what Phoenix recommend) - Some organists can be as stubborn as hell.
And, when they recommend speaker configurations - Listen carefully!

[Southern Comfort]

The factory you mention is Renatus. They make the consoles. Top class stuff.

No one's denying that, although Renatus have never been told what RC organists might like in their consoles (e.g. to be able to see over them ).

[Southern Comfort]

However, it was the pricing that stunned me. Spec for spec, Makin was vastly more expensive.

I'm not denying your experience, simply suggesting that it might be an Irish experience. Recent experiences in England with Phoenix v. Makin tell a very different story. As I would not recommend either of them, I have no axe to grind. Phoenix in England were considerably more expensive than Makin, quote for quote.

[keitha]

I would just like to thank everyone who has contributed this thread, and to the several who have sent me private messages and emails at home. Everyone has had something useful to say and it has been very helpful. I now have the opportunity of trying out virtually all of the makes that SC listed in his very comprehensive first response, which is pretty good going. We have also seen some interesting debate. Further contributions will still be welcome - particularly in relation to post-installation support.

Just for the record, in relation to pricing, Phoenix were happy to disclose to me the specification for Psalm Project's instrument and gave me a copy of the price quotation as a guide without me having to ask - which does seem to suggest that the price charged in Cork was not a loss leader to get into the Irish market, which I think is what SC is hinting at.

I will summarize the the results of all of this in due course.

[Southern Comfort]

which does seem to suggest that the price charged in Cork was not a loss leader to get into the Irish market, which I think is what SC is hinting at.

I wasn't, as a matter of fact. I merely assumed that exchange rates would make a difference (I was still thinking of the Irish punt, actually, rather than the euro) ─ but then I suppose they would for Makin too. To provide some actual data: Phoenix's prices in this part of the world currently seem to be more than double what one would pay for a comparable Viscount or Wyvern instrument.

[keitha]

Thanks for the clarification SC - and for the pricing information.

Lest there be any confusion, all the pricing for the Cork installation was in Sterling, so I was comparing 'apples with apples'. Sterling had collapsed against the euro at the time of the installation and I would imagine that by the time bank charges and currency conversion were taken into account there was little difference between the real costs in euro and Sterling.

[Psalm Project]

SC... still thinking in the Irish 'punt' terms... surely not! That went out with the dinosaurs
When are you guys going to go the euro route!
SC... maybe you should grab a cheap flight over to see this organ! You would be assured of a warm welcome!
I'll stand you lunch!